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Ernesto

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Sign the petition. http://www.getmoneyout.com/

And then go out and join the Occupy Wall Street protest

Haven't you had enough? The banks got bailed out with our money and won't give loans to small business's. They raise credit card fees, they buy peoples tax debt on the houses and buy back homes that they let foreclose. http://occupywallst.org/
 

Twomly

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Damn banks always on the take an never wanna hand it back.
All lending each other money that never exsisted in reality only in numbers on a screen what happened to going to the safe an counting what you have an only lending within your means.
Now they're all strugling with debts they created with money that don't exsist with books that are still in the red an not whilling to help each other out or even their customers that have bailed them out with higher taxes.
They might aswell addmit defeat and burn all the bad debt as the people who took out those debts never had any intention of paying it back, if the banks are going to be frivulous in handing out debt and not do propper background checks on what people are applying for, then they are their own worssed enemy and only have themselves to blame.
 

Ernesto

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I follow Dylans show as much as I can. Thats what prompted me to post this after watching his show yesterday. To many people are misinformed about what the exact problem is in this country. Hello, the rich we still be aboe to afford yachts, jets and buy beautiful hardwood floors, maybe carpet. :mad:

You don't have to go to a protest if your to far away from one, you own a computer and most likely have a phone. Work it.

Dylan always has been a straight shooter.
 

highup

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I follow Dylans show as much as I can. Thats what prompted me to post this after watching his show yesterday. To many people are misinformed about what the exact problem is in this country. Hello, the rich we still be aboe to afford yachts, jets and buy beautiful hardwood floors, maybe carpet. :mad:

You don't have to go to a protest if your to far away from one, you own a computer and most likely have a phone. Work it.

Dylan always has been a straight shooter.

I just invented a widget and sold 10 billion of them last week alone and only made .50 cents apiece on each one of them. I created 15,000 jobs averaging $29,000 per year.
Now everyone hates me because I'm rich and say that I don't pay my fair share. :confused:

OK, I read a bit about the organization............... I probably overreacted thinking this was the same goofy anti-Wall Street organization that hasn't given much of a clue as to what their rant is really about.
..........other than that they want other people (aka, the 1%) to pay for the stuff they need to live decently so they don't have to go to work.

The same ones that were asking publicly for free food, free supplies, free sleeping bags for the big event ............... asking for all this free stuff from the same rich corporations that they despise.
My bad.
(Hey, I'm stupid and you're smart, so I want you to give me your money so we are more equal)


From that organization's "about us"

Our nation, our species and our world are in crisis.

OUR SPECIES??? .......are you kidding me?
:eek: That inclusion alone tells me what a nut-job this organization is.
.......... no need for me to read any further.

If it was simply about corporate campaign donors and donation levels I'd be tootin a different horn, but people like these want me to put solar cells on my home to heat it in winter. :rolleyes:
Solar cells as in Solyndra, which as suddenly and 100%ly disappeared from google news page today. I'm guessin google donated to noBama too.
 
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Ernesto

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I found news about Solyndra http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp....,cf.osb&fp=1083cc5305162393&biw=1280&bih=941

Oh my, large link, just google Solyndra. To bad no ones stopping China from dumping solar panels in the states. No company can survive that if they want to put a US company out of business.

I think they mean "species" as the American worker. doh:D

Hate to burst that bubble you've been floating around in high, solar panels do work in winter. I tried my best to find a non-biased report for you knowing you would deny anything said from a greenie site. http://www.buzzle.com/articles/do-solar-panels-work-in-the-winter.html

Solar power works great in AZ and the southwest but does not have to be here, it also works well all over the world. There's been a huge push with solar here. Just google solar in az. The local air force base (DMAFB) has a large array, three blocks long and 1 block in width and also with panels on the roofs of new houses for hot water, the U of A does, other schools have them. Heck, you can fry an egg on your car hood in seconds, heat pool water just with black plastic tubing. Whats wrong with solar?

http://www.istockanalyst.com/business/news/5466509/solar-projects-in-az-get-ok-for-guarantees

Do you like Frito's High? Had to put a treehugger column in here. http://www.treehugger.com/files/2011/10/near-net-zero-reached-at-frito-lay-plant.php
 
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Nick

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There is a Politician that has solar ,and a electric car .
her electric bill each month is $3.00 that is not a typo.

When you loose 50,000 plants in the last year or so because they moved overseas , something is wrong .
 

highup

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I found news about Solyndra http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp....,cf.osb&fp=1083cc5305162393&biw=1280&bih=941

Oh my, large link, just google Solyndra. To bad no ones stopping China from dumping solar panels in the states. No company can survive that if they want to put a US company out of business.

I think they mean "species" as the American worker. doh:D

Hate to burst that bubble you've been floating around in high, solar panels do work in winter. I tried my best to find a non-biased report for you knowing you would deny anything said from a greenie site. http://www.buzzle.com/articles/do-solar-panels-work-in-the-winter.html

Solar power works great in AZ and the southwest but does not have to be here, it also works well all over the world. There's been a huge push with solar here. Just google solar in az. The local air force base (DMAFB) has a large array, three blocks long and 1 block in width and also with panels on the roofs of new houses for hot water, the U of A does, other schools have them. Heck, you can fry an egg on your car hood in seconds, heat pool water just with black plastic tubing. Whats wrong with solar?

http://www.istockanalyst.com/business/news/5466509/solar-projects-in-az-get-ok-for-guarantees

Do you like Frito's High? Had to put a treehugger column in here. http://www.treehugger.com/files/2011/10/near-net-zero-reached-at-frito-lay-plant.php

How much $$$ were Fritos and Pepsi given in subsidies from the federal and local governments?

Why did they not build that plant in Oregon............. you said that we have solar here too.

We have a new fire station. The rooftop is solar cells and they even have some cute plugins for battery cars. Plugins I think they have three of them. ............... electric cars in the county, probably three also
Our new information center has a huge array of solar cells too.......... and plug ins for two electric cars.

We have a university estuary reserve............ it too has solar cells.

............do you see a pattern here?
The government subsidizes the government ....and it heavily subsidizes the entire solar and "renewable" energy industry.
There would be no solar industry without outrageous amounts of gift money from the US citizens............... even if they don't subscribe to the idiocy.

We had a trial wind farm here on the coast back in the 70's during windmill infancy.
............................... and guess what?
..........40 years later, there isn't a wind-farm company out there in the entire world that would survive 6 months without handouts subsidies or payoffs from their respective governments.
Let them sink or swim................. enough of the free money. Do they need another 40 or 50 years to figure out how to make a profit???

Solar is no different. Sink or swim with your own money, not the endless subsidies.......................... no more nipple.

.......and you can take that to Wall Street in your rants.
I propose that if the cost is so high after 40 years of development, screw em...... make those companies make a profit the old fashioned way.

Solar takes HUGE amounts of land area to make it feasible, and it will work only in areas that have enough daily average sunlight.
............ and besides that, even the liberal idiots will not allow green to happen in their own back yard.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/business/energy-environment/22solar.html?pagewanted=all

Kennedy didn't want windmills in HIS back yard either.
Wake up bucko. They need to survive without 75 or 100 years of government help.
............... or go by the wayside like Solyndra did. They were in such bad shape that they couldn't survive 6 months with over a half billion in handouts...........and every customer they sold products to was given subsidies too!!!

Hope I'm not overstating the obvious..................... only government can afford this crap. :mad:
I'd love to have it, but at 4 to 10 times the expense I am paying now, it ain't gonna happen. If I had an extra $40 grand to toss into the wind, I'd do it in a nanosecond so I wouldn't have to lick a stamp every month.

How much in subsidies did PepsiCo/Fritos get in subsidies for this miracle?

Why if they are wanting to portray themselves as "green" did they not do it all by their selves?

When the ordinary citizen is able to afford gridless, without the government holding anyone's hand, I will be all for it.

..........same with the oil companies or anyone else.
 
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highup

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There is a Politician that has solar ,and a electric car .
her electric bill each month is $3.00 that is not a typo.

When you loose 50,000 plants in the last year or so because they moved overseas , something is wrong .

The problem is how to make the plant's stop leaving.

"Hi, I'm from the federal government and I'm here to help you" :eek:
THAT is the problem.

I don't recall us having such trade and factory problems until Bush-I and Clinton let NAFTA happen. I also don't know how to turn back time.
.........but if I could turn back time.;)

I don't know the fix. Tax those companies or punish them into extinction? Make rules so hard for them they give up and move overseas?
Sure, we can then tax and tariff them hard............... but us consumers will end up paying that cost.
I have no clue how to fix this, but I sure wish I did.

If I did, I'd sell you the plan for 4 easy installments of 57 billion...........
...........................but wait, if you act now, I'll send you my second plan absolutely free, just pay separate shipping and handling charges. :D
 
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Ernesto

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@ Highup, you said
Solar takes HUGE amounts of land area to make it feasible, and it will work only in areas that have enough daily average sunlight.
............ and besides that, even the liberal idiots will not allow green to happen in their own back yard

Have you seen how much barren desert we have in AZ alone? Not to mention New Mexico, Texas, Nevada and California? I don't think allocating land is a problem. We could generate all the power for the country in AZ alone me thinks.

Do you know how much China maniplulates their currency, and how much they subsidize their companys? Every government subsidizes their companys. Would you like to just sit on the sidelines and give up?

I think the movers and shakers are realizing that without manufacturing base here in the states that people will not have jobs, and people without jobs won't be buying large ticket items.

I just heard Ford is going to bring back a plant from Mehico.

Don't fight it, embrace it. Now what was that about them not working in the winter again?

And thats that. :D
 

Ernesto

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One more thing. Let us remember why the alternative fuels came about. It's about not being blackmailed by foreign country's. And to keep our money from being used for terrorist funding.

Are alternative fuels going to cost more, sure they will for awhile, just like flat screen TV's, they will eventually lower in cost the more they are integrated into our society.

We need to become energy self sufficient. When we do or even come close to it our economy will be the better for it.

And it's not like the cost of fossil fuels will stay below $4.00 a gallon, that we know for sure.

And thats that. :D
 

DarisMulkin

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One more thing. Let us remember why the alternative fuels came about. It's about not being blackmailed by foreign country's. And to keep our money from being used for terrorist funding.

Are alternative fuels going to cost more, sure they will for awhile, just like flat screen TV's, they will eventually lower in cost the more they are integrated into our society.

We need to become energy self sufficient. When we do or even come close to it our economy will be the better for it.

And it's not like the cost of fossil fuels will stay below $4.00 a gallon, that we know for sure.

And thats that. :D

Hate to disagree with ya boss but unleaded was supposed to be much cheaper also and ya see where it is at. :eek:

Daris
 

Ernesto

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Hate to disagree with ya boss but unleaded was supposed to be much cheaper also and ya see where it is at. :eek:

Daris

Ok Daris, so I was talking about alternative energy mostly. I don't think unleaded is alternative to anything fuel wise cept leaded and there ain't no leaded anywhere.....ok maybe Highup has a source. lol I used to run airplane fuel in my 67 camero though. Luckily my buddy had a plane and the gas guy would filler up if I bribed him. :D
 

DarisMulkin

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Ok Daris, so I was talking about alternative energy mostly. I don't think unleaded is alternative to anything fuel wise cept leaded and there ain't no leaded anywhere.....ok maybe Highup has a source. lol I used to run airplane fuel in my 67 camero though. Luckily my buddy had a plane and the gas guy would filler up if I bribed him. :D

When I was in the Navy [naval air] we used to run AV gas in our cars. Only thing was they put a aromatic quality into it and the gate guard would get a whiff and you could get in trouble. 59 chevy ran like a scalded dog though for a 6 cylinder.

Daris
 

highup

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@ Highup, you said

Have you seen how much barren desert we have in AZ alone? Not to mention New Mexico, Texas, Nevada and California? I don't think allocating land is a problem. We could generate all the power for the country in AZ alone me thinks.

Do you know how much China maniplulates their currency, and how much they subsidize their companys? Every government subsidizes their companys. Would you like to just sit on the sidelines and give up?

I think the movers and shakers are realizing that without manufacturing base here in the states that people will not have jobs, and people without jobs won't be buying large ticket items.

I just heard Ford is going to bring back a plant from Mehico.

Don't fight it, embrace it. Now what was that about them not working in the winter again?

And thats that. :D


There are a LOT of things people leave out about solar............ it has it's place I totally agree, but it's a pipe dream to a point.


First and foremost, we will always need a 100% ...OK...OK a 98% foolproof backup for cloudy and windless days. That's a given. We cannot operate as a country without power on demand 24/7. An aluminum smelter cannot have a 2 day or even a two hour .........ooooops, the wind stopped blowing episode.
Traffic lights, airports, hospitals and you can name many, many more. The list is virtually endless.

We need ...........and currently have an extremely efficient source of electricity governed by affordability from suppliers.

Green power is kinda pretty, ....................but outrageously expensive in comparison. .......we are talkin two to 6 times as expensive especially so if you remove the never ending subsidies. Will they ever end? Will companies ever survive without them? Yes, ......maybe if we take away the subsidies and force them make the product affordable. Maybe then will it become a reality.
The industry has made tremendous leaps in the past 5 or 10 or 40 years, but ending subsidized energy is nowhere in sight.

OK, the reality of the pipe dream.
Solar farms, no matter solar heat farms or solar cell farms have a wee bit of a problem. (many of them)
They work best the closer one gets to the equator.............. the US isn't on the equator.
The companies and "greenies" only tell us the numbers on the bright side of the subject............ ideal conditions and maximum output.
That's not reality.
For solar, they can brag all they want about megawatts per square mile, but factor that in REALITY, divided by less than a factor of 4.
On the average day, you will get a good 6 hours of good sun angle to power the stuff............... the "day" has 24 of them.
Do some math............ 100% very quickly becomes 30% 25% or less.

In the winter, some locations have these things called clouds, fog and haze, so now we are getting even LESS now than 24% of the bragged about by the "greenies" and the companies when promoting their wares.

Wind has the same issues. The companies that promote their heavily subsidized power output do so bragging about their power per mill.......... they tell you the max power. They don't tell you the reality which includes down time and costs for repairs and maintenance, or when wind conditions are not at their peak, or totally windless or days when there is not enough wind to turn the turbines............which happens.
Again, you MUST average these factors out over the entire "average year".
What is the average wind speed at a given location? What if it goes above the limits of the mill and they need to shut down from excessive winds?

OK, one more tiny detail.
Nukes and coal or other power sources would need to be able to instantly pick up the slack of solar or wind power that can change in an instant.

The power we all use now is from sources that cannot just flip a switch or turn a dial to ramp up or ramp down like we so easily do with a dimmer switch.

Unpredictable power surges or power losses create havoc.... be it wind that stops blowing, then starts again 10 minutes later, or clouds coming in and going away minute by minute or hour by hour............. who pays for the havoc?

No sun at night, and the wind often stops then too............ At this point we need a 100% backup system in place.......... and guess what.... we already have it.

So if we are somehow able to get as much as 20% renewable energy from the sun or wind.
We will still need our entire backup system, (our current system), ready and waiting minute by minute day by day, year by year.
This is the pipe dream I mentioned. We will pay for our current power system since we will always need to have it ready as needed when the alternatives fail to produce.

How does a power company charge for power if some of the power demand is provided by a constantly changing and sometimes unpredictable or unreliable power source?

This is a very complicated issue, both logistically and financially.
Green will cost more......... a lot more.
........but then again, just like the subsidies to those green power companies, and subsidies to the people that purchase their products, the almighty government will (and does) subsidize these new higher costs by giving people vouchers or credits (subsidies) because they can't afford the high costs of these renewable power sources.

Heck, I worked for a doctor last year that put in some fancy new shades on his windows.
......... he would NOT have bough them without the "energy credit" (another subsidy)

Where's my subsidy? :rolleyes:

In ending, I do like the idea of renewable..
........... and I'd like to have some of that "free" solar and wind power ...that is if "free" wasn't 4 times more expensive than what I have now.
 
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highup

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Ok Daris, so I was talking about alternative energy mostly. I don't think unleaded is alternative to anything fuel wise cept leaded and there ain't no leaded anywhere.....ok maybe Highup has a source. lol I used to run airplane fuel in my 67 camero though. Luckily my buddy had a plane and the gas guy would filler up if I bribed him. :D

I put fishin weights in my gas tank on race day. :D
 

DarisMulkin

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Back to the alternative fuel-ethanol. Did you know that when a load of corn goes into the plant in the morning that it is shipped out that same evening or day. It only takes a matter of hours to process the corn into alcohol. My sister in law live just a couple of miles from a plant in Wisconsin and her daughter works there. 5 train loads a day go out of this plant.

Daris
 

Floorist

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Ethanol is only pushed for the farm vote. It lowers your gas mileage, increases engine wear and takes more energy to produce than it creates when burned. It also is raising food prices. Missouri mandates 10% ethanol and is stilling having problems keeping the plants open. The local bio plant has gone broke twice already.
 

Ernesto

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I think ethanol is going to be gone soon, plus everyone knows it competes with the food chain to much.

I think Highup has been researching on the wrong websites. heh heh Of course we will need backup generators. But just as we have them now when demand spikes, they go on instantly. There's people out there that actually get paid to watch the power grid. And they can tell you exactly when and how much power we need on an hourly basis.

Storage of power technology is gaining ground year by year as is photovoltaic solar.

Lets not forget about the refractive solar power. "Four times as much" ? Not sure if Highup is stuck just on photovoltaic films and the like. Even now we have thin films that bend, people are covering their entire roofs with.

Read the related stories at the bottom of this page as well:

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/05/29/ge-solar-power-cheaper-than-fossil-fuels-in-5-years/

Down here we get in excess of 300 days of sun a year. Plus they actually still work when it's cloudy, albiet not as much.
 
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highup

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Usable solar energy is a huge part of the equation. If southern CA averages 5.5 hours per day averaged annually, (summer through winter) then there are 18.5 hours per day that need another power source.
http://solarexpert.com/grid-tie/system-performance-factors.html
Up here in the great wet north, it's even worse.

Look at the rated power output per 100 watts, versus the typical real world power loss per 100 watt panel.

Just 'cause the sun is visible doesn't mean you are receiving usable power. At 8 am you may see the sun, but it's rays are passing through many more miles of atmosphere than at 10am. So usable hours are different than daylight hours.

I agree if solar has a place it's in the desert turtle part of the United States
..........you just need to get approval from the same wackos that want "green power" and also want to save the desert turtle or rare cactus or whatever else they think needs to be saved.

Ask Barbara Boxer about putting a solar farm in the desert. NIMBY

Build nukes and reduce the footprint on the earth instead of using up all that desert space........... leave the turtles alone. ;)
 
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