How much will adhesive raise the floor height?

[highup]

Is there a best guess on how much a flooring adhesive will raise the finished height of an engineered wood floor?
Product is Taylors M+S and it's going to be applied to a self leveler. The finished height of the self leveler will need to be pretty accurate to achieve a 1 inch depth in which to install the wood floor.
The wood floor is 3 1/4" engineered that's 3/4" thick. The back side of engineered is smooth and have no grooves like solid milled wood flooring.

I'm trying to guess how much the adhesive will raise the finished height of the wood floor.
I'm guessing about 3/32? Am I close?

 

[havasu]

When I was playing with some glue down Bruce flooring, I found it raised the floor between 1/16" and 1/8" inch once it was mushed and dried.

 

[Incognito]

your best bet is to do an actual mock-up with the wood, adhesive and trowel notch

other that that it's ballpark guessing

so how accurate does this need to be

never had adhesive thickness factor in------other than EYEBALL/ballpark feel

you also need to accurately replicate substrate conditions if you can't use the actual floor to do a mock up

 

[highup]

your best bet is to do an actual mock-up with the wood, adhesive and trowel notch

other that that it's ballpark guessing

so how accurate does this need to be

never had adhesive thickness factor in------other than EYEBALL/ballpark feel

you also need to accurately replicate substrate conditions if you can't use the actual floor to do a mock up

Here's the adhesive specs. At the bottom of the page it shows the trowel notching. The lowest one with the 30 to 35 sq ft per gallon is what is specified for the job.............. so It's a tiny bit thicker than a standard wood flooring notch. I wonder how deep that additional spacer adds to the thickness?
http://www.wisterialaneflooring.com...0/12/Taylor-MS-Plus-Advance-spec-01-07-10.pdf

Based on this image, I'm guessing now, there will be a full 1/8" of adhesive thickness.

 

[Incognito]

From the diagram I would guess under 1/8"


.......not MUCH under though

 

[highup]

From the diagram I would guess under 1/8"


.......not MUCH under though

That's exactly how much I was thinkin. A gnats ass under 1/8"

 

[highup]

From the diagram I would guess under 1/8"


.......not MUCH under though

Well, we got the second coat of the epoxy vapor retarder rolled on this morning and the self leveler was poured on about 4 hours later.
...So as far as the "correct" height" I am hoping that I figured it right. It will be close enough.
.............it is, what it is. Outa my hands at this point anyway.

I must say, that the tech/rep that drove 150 miles down here to help with the install, to teach, to supervise the installation was fantastic. A great personality. I'm guessing he is in his mid thirties. He told me (to my relief) that I got the concrete surface grinding done to his satisfaction. Wahoo, I done good!

On Sunday I did one last vacuuming of the surface, spread out some drop cloths and he went straight to work getting the epoxy mixed. He poured it around the perimeter of the work space and I troweled it out with a 1/8 by 1/8 by 1/8 V-notch trowel.............. I guess you can't pour this stuff too thick. As I was troweling, he started back rolling in every direction to smooth it out. It went very well.

This morning, we did the second coat, but with a 16th by 16th trowel, and again, he back rolled it.
We had to work really fast this time because he added two bottles of epoxy accelerator to the mix. (in addition to the catalyst) Wow did it set fast.
The epoxy comes in a metal 2 gallon container. We needed much less than 1/2 that amount for this second pour. As per instructions, the metal pail with the remaining volume of epoxy was set outside in the parking lot. He's gonna email me photos of the white smoke that began coming out of that can. 5 minutes later, in a cool breeze, the bubbled column of epoxy that rose straight out of that metal can was still 180 degrees according to my hand held infrared thermometer. Certainly it went well over 200 degrees on the exterior part of the can just a few minutes earlier in this massive chemical reaction process.

This stuff is serious, so be careful with it.

This fellas employer is gonna get an email from me. He was absolutely fantastic in every way. Pleasant to talk with, very well spoken when giving instructions, or showing or describing the process we were about to do............... or when simply answering questions. It was a great learning experience. (even tho I will probably never need to do this again)
That said, I can teach the locals if needed on their projects.

When he sends them, I'll pass on some photos of this little project that has nearly driven me to the brink.

I measured the depth of the pour in a lot of places early on. This was just 130 sq feet of floor space with 3/4 of an inch of leveler needed, ........on average. I figured that it would take 13 bags.................... it took 13 bags and we had 1 to 1 1/2 gallons left over.

 

[highup]

When I was playing with some glue down Bruce flooring, I found it raised the floor between 1/16" and 1/8" inch once it was mushed and dried.

your best bet is to do an actual mock-up with the wood, adhesive and trowel notch

other that that it's ballpark guessing

so how accurate does this need to be

never had adhesive thickness factor in------other than EYEBALL/ballpark feel

you also need to accurately replicate substrate conditions if you can't use the actual floor to do a mock up

One additional thought since this is an unfinished wood product............. it will still need to be sanded lightly....................... I see, there may be an additional 128th of an inch benefiting my side of the project's depth.

 

[havasu]

Well, you are a precision installer, aren't you?

 

[highup]

Well, you are a precision installer, aren't you?

I sleep much better when the precision is based on my own personal experiences and knowledge base.


You ought to see the Z shaped leveler tabs that I made last night. I super glued them to the floor depression's perimeter to ensure consistent height as we were pouring the leveler. Nobody expected me to come up with that idea........................ so, me, and myself, and I had to expect me to come up with that idea................... see why I don't asleep well? b My leveler tabs measured from the top surface down to the leveler itself/
The few systems that I have known use adhesive tabs that measure from the bottom up.

I made these one inch 'deep' sheet metal tabs, then super glued them to each of the 4 corners of this area, and put an additional tab in the middle of each span. These tabs were glued to the top of a metal framework.
As we were pouring the leveler, I could instantly see the tabs and the leveling compound................ if the leveling compound overflowed or enveloped the tab, it was too much. If it was at or 1/32" below my metal tabs, it was fine. It worked out really well with the unusual accuracy needed for this pour. I'm sleepn' well tonight.

 

[havasu]

I'd like to see that trick. Do you have any pics, or are you waiting for the patent to be pending?

 

[highup]

Here's a description of my pending patent....... I introduce the Bent Metal Thingy 2015-ZL
I used my metal snips to cut a 3/8" wide strip from a piece of galvanized sheet metal, then cut, hammered and bent each piece over a section of 1" angle iron in my bench vice. Probably took an hour or so to make em.

I put 8 of these Bent Metal Thingys around the perimeter, and we used 3 of the UZIN height gauge sticks in the center of the pour.
After a couple of bags were poured near one end, I used the screed/rake to pull the flowing mixture towards the Thingys until enough was poured to keep the mix from flowing away from them.
If a white line was merely painted on the metal at a 1 inch depth, the slightest wave of filler would have coated the line, making it invisible. The tabs worked perfect for this small area, and the edges were the most important part. If material flowed onto a tabs, you just wipe it back off.

Initially I used isocyanate (one ton adhesive) to stick them to the metal. I was concerned that they might get knocked off while we were working the flow, I dabbed some hot glue over the top of each tab. I'll go remove them later today.

 

[highup]

I'd like to see that trick. Do you have any pics, or are you waiting for the patent to be pending?

No trick, just a tool. Here's a "pic" from my scanner. It's one of the "Bent Metal Thingy 2015-XL's that I removed from the job site today. Purdy simple................ Making one of these is a +1.5 on a 1 to 10 difficulty scale.
Making 8 of them exactly the same raises the bar to 2.2

Making 8 of these units exactly the same in a one hour period using just a hacksaw, hammer and vice raises the bar to a solid 3.5

................it's just some bent sheet metal.

 

[Jon]

You clever

 

[havasu]

That is a slick idea. Seriously looks like an idea that could be patented.

 

[Incognito]

I don't know about a patent but I sure see a lot of tool/gimmicks out there that are not even that complicated that people are trying to sell for ridiculous $$$$. Cracks me up all the scribers and layout tools that essentially amount to either a "stick and a nail" or a "string and a nail".

Some guys take pride in spending and owning every tool ever made.

Other guys take pride in being able to do the work with nothing but the stick and nail.

I go back and forth.

 

[highup]

You clever

Me not likes to screw up.

That is a slick idea. Seriously looks like an idea that could be patented.

Problem arises when you need tabs that are 15/16", or 1 3/8" or 5/8" I do have ideas on that too.
Big question is, how often are depressions or insets in concrete done? How often do those depressions need to be re-adjusted after a concrete pour and filled to exacting levels with a self leveler?
There are products like these that basically do the same thing and probably cover 99% of self leveler height issues.

http://www.ardexamericas.com/en-us/...aration-toppings/Pages/ARDEX-ARDIPEG(TM).aspx

 

[highup]

I don't know about a patent but I sure see a lot of tool/gimmicks out there that are not even that complicated that people are trying to sell for ridiculous $$$$. Cracks me up all the scribers and layout tools that essentially amount to either a "stick and a nail" or a "string and a nail".

Some guys take pride in spending and owning every tool ever made.

Other guys take pride in being able to do the work with nothing but the stick and nail.

I go back and forth.

My thoughts are that guys that do a lot of self leveling already have a clever way to achieve exacting heights when they really need to. This was a new experience for me, so my super picky self thought up something that would work for me............ and it worked great.
The visibility of these flat tabs as the leveler either barely made contact with them, or barely overflowed on them made for some great accuracy.

 

[highup]

Ha! I just had another brainstorm that's more "patentable" ...........and easier to do without snips, metal and a vise.
...ya just can't stop me.

 

[Floorist]

NASA could get an exact measure with a laser.