Large floor plan - suggested starting point / layout?

[bitbanger]

Hi Folks -

We've spent the past few weeks pulling and prepping all of our first floor - now comes the fun part of where to start. The only through line of site is shown below, where I think I should start my first course and base the rest from. Trick of course is finding out how this sets us up for all rooms' final row width/parallelism, but this is the only way I know how to start. By that I mean we make the first course parallel with the walls in the living room, but by the time we make it over to TV/dining we may find that it makes that course out of parallel with those walls.

I have yet to snap a line as shown to see how bad this could be, but the tough part will be gauging how, for example, the office will end up.

My thought is that we could add some transitions to 'localize' this wall parallel/straight issues being otherwise exaggerated by trying to carry such a large install through all rooms?

We're pretty decided on keeping a consistent direction - shown, but I welcome your thoughts. For the TV + Dining it would admittedly look better going up and down due to the bay window, foyer likely as well due to how narrow it is. However left-to-right as shown makes the most sense for the kitchen/living, and to some extent dining room. Of course as someone enters from Foyer into kitchen it'd be nice to not change direction right there. However one thought was to do Office+Foyer+TV+Dining up/down, then transition to left/right at the two entrances to the kitchen.

I'm totally fine with transitions themselves otherwise (especially if they help avoid issues as described above). We are definitely adding transitions where shown in purple, for varied reasons.

This will be 7x48" 6mm RVP (w/pad). Installed over QuietWalk laminate underlayment. For reference 23/32 T&G ply + new 7/16" OSB stapled + shimmed with roofing felt to be < 1/8" over 6'. Found out the hard way that OSB can thin out near the edges so I'm having to cement level some of the transitions between OSB panels. Live and learn.

Anyway what's your first take?

PS I laid a few hundred sq ft of laminate back in it's heyday so I'm no stranger to room transitions, cutting out for registers, etc, but this will be first vinyl plank install, and first with this many joining rooms.

 

[C.J.]

Question: Why are you using a laminate underlayment if the material itself already has a pad attached?

I think your starting point is prolly the best for a long layout like yours. Two ways you can go about ensuring everything stays straight. First one would be to snap a line and fasten scab boards to the subfloor and bump off of the scab boards. Complete half the house then remove the boards and install the other half. Second way would be to snap a line and rack up a couple rows on that line then click some scab pieces of flooring in and fasten them to the subfloor.

 

[bitbanger]

The padding on this CoreLux is nothing much to write home about, and due to the open foyer (to 2nd floor bedrooms) wanted to help deaden sound as much as possible. My only concern is (planned) gas range and fridge sitting on floor. Not so much for expansion but compressing the underlayment and causing, long term, bucking of the floor in these areas

We were thinking the same regarding the scabbed row.

 

[bitbanger]

Continuing the fridge thought - I may consider just layering up some roofing felt in the square areas the fridge and range will sit, to match the nominal height of the underlayment, to offer less "give" long term. Thoughts? For the stove I could probably hide a transition/end the flooring just under the front drawer edge too...

 

[highup]

You do not want to add a second pad. That will make the material flex and it's not supposed to flex.
It will weaken the joints. That said, your warranty is out the window.
The thickness of the attached pad is not what dampens the sound, it's what that material is constructed of.

 

[bitbanger]

As a consumer I've had to make a decision by wading through various opinions on this matter. Let me start by saying I have no illusions about warranty - manufactures will use any tactic necessary to get out of a warranty claim and I've been told (successful) LVP/RVP warranty claims are few and far between. So my main interest is, of course, integrity of the install long term and second to that at least some level of added sound absorption/transmission reduction.

That said, I started by consulting the manual (links below) - to your point it does not explicitly condone or endorse *additional* padding. It simply states that padding is recommended if not already attached. While not a super thick plank this is a RVP / stone core plank, and is very ridged. I selected it based on the seemingly good quality locking joint.

CoreLuxe XD 6mm w/pad Provence Oak Waterproof Rigid Vinyl Plank Flooring 7 in. Wide x 48 in. Long | LL Flooring

Lumber liquidators sells and recommends padding. The salespersons (to be fair who's interest is in a sale) has stated that the ones offered and sold by LL have been endorsed by the CoreLux XD manufacture to not cause problems.

This padding, purchased at HD, is spec'd at 1/16", is actually a tad thicker when uncompressed/relaxed. It is marketed specifically for under vinyl planks 5mm and over. QuietWalk 100 sq. ft. x 3 ft. x 33.34 ft. x 1/16 in. Acoustical Underlayment with Vapor Barrier for Luxury Vinyl Flooring-QWLV100 - The Home Depot

In light of your comments I've reached out to LL tech support who have opened a ticket to confirm with the manufacture the appropriateness (from a warranty perspective at least) on using the specific underlayment with their product. I'll update when I get a response.

Thanks for the input and I welcome the continuation of this subject.

 

[bitbanger]

So as a follow-up, LL tech support did return my call. They did not expressly prohibit the QuietWalk, but instead they recommended their EcoSilent HD.

Spec's below for discussion:

QuietWalk:
Thickness: 1.4mm (0.055")
Density: 18.28 lbs/cu ft
Compression Res (@50%): 64.58psi
Compression Set (@25%): 8.8%

EcoSilent HD:
Thickness: 0.078"
Density: 25 lbs
Compression Res (@25%): 8.6psi
Compression Set (@50%): 4.2%

 

[C.J.]

I remember back in the day when the showrooms would have laminate samples with various underlayments and a golf ball to bounce off of them. You bouncin golf balls in your house?

The only purpose of a second layer of pad is to boost the sale. Tech support is in on the gig, think about it. Not sayin that your floor will instantly fail but the second layer of pad is 1.4 mm. How much sound do you really think that will absorb. Even at 1/16”, how much sound do you think that will absorb. I suspect the majority of sound will be reflected off of the surface of your new floor. Buy an area rug to quiet things down. The pad on the back of the plank is to help with floor slap. That’s the sound you hear when you’re walking around and the planks slap against the slab/ subfloor. If you’re looking for sound deadening, such as you may need if you were in a second story condo, then you would prolly put down a layer of 1/4” cork or something like that.

Either way, it’s your money, I’m just here to help you get your first rows straight.

 

[Tile Tom]

I'm all with what the boys said above. Ditch the extra layer of pad!

The less "squish" underneath the better.
I personally can't see a reason for the added pad. Just another layer that could potentially cause failure. If you're dead set on adding some more to the equation, go with cork. It's dense enough to not interfere with the locking mechanism and provides everything you're looking to achieve.

I'm also in the middle of dealing with a customer that did just that except with laminate. It came pad attached and they decided to leave the pad from their previous laminate. Long story short, there's separation issues. Lucky for them I can fix the issues by taking it apart and reinstalling without the extra pad and a little titebond.

 

[Mark Brown]

I am going to have to say I am in disagreement here. There are a great number of pads that would be appropriate for use under a pad attached product. The sound reduction comes from a decoupling layer which in turn creates an air gap where sound transfer goes to die.

To date I have been too lazy to look at the specific pads in question here so I'm gonna have to get around to it.... but I wouldn't discount the whole thing.

As great as cork is, there are a million other things that are as good or better. Cork isn't the only thing out there.

 

[C.J.]

I’m all for learning something new so I’ll wait for @Mark Brown to bust a move on the science behind his thoughts. Until then my experience is that a second layer of pad is not much more than additional money in the sale.

 

[Mark Brown]

Ever look at all the different pad options available and their relative IIC, SSC and delta sound reduction numbers?? Ever wonder why for the most part they are almost identical? Look at the two pads the OP has referenced, they are very dissimilar in construction, density, weight yet their numbers are within 5% of one another. The reduction in sound really comes from decoupling of the transfer medium. Sound will not transfer (vibrate) through these materials well and when it does the vibration is reduced. The reduction in amplitude of soundwaves then transfers through open air and back into another surface. This is where the majority of the reduction comes from.

While I would not argue that the gains may be minimal, they would definitely be there. Worth the money? that is a question I cannot answer but I know from a personal point of view I do not mind sinking a situation of diminishing returns into my happiness

I would not recommend installing pad attached vinyl plank over a layer of cheezy 3in1 foam pad or anything, but the market is there for dense pads that are up to the task and they do exist. Want to talk about insane pad options, I found a felt pad I was comfortable enough with in its density that I installed DuraCeramic on and then grouted it. I think if that worked, there is a strong possibility that they have come a long way in their construction.

 

[bitbanger]

Homeowner here. I'll admit I am a bit biased in my opinion because I had already purchased three rolls of the QuietWalk prior to my post. However not so invested that I'm not willing to take a slight loss on selling it if it means compromising my floor. $300 for the otherwise *chance* that it'll help though? I'd gamble on those odds.



was one motivator for seeking out an underlayment appropriate for vinyl, along with:

However I also respect the opinion of:


...and all the pros here.
Thanks everyone for their input.

 

[C.J.]

I’ll buy the uncoupling aspect but it’s a floating floor. How much more uncoupled can it get.

 

[Mark Brown]

Lots man, a floating floor is designed to be in contact with the surface it rests on. Direct contact is direct contact. I think we are losing the semantics on this one. Perhaps I have done a poor job describing what it is I am trying to explain... the dissimilarity of the mediums of transmission and the density on top of the layering is all part of the package also every layer adds to the transmission loss. It is the same as when they construct that IIC setup with 10 inches of air space and a drop ceiling, except in a much smaller capacity.

Long story short, delta reductions in sound transmission tell the whole story. Here is a small explainer.

https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing_101/what-is-stc-oitc-iic-and-delta-iic-δiic
Someday we can sit down in Arizona under a cactus, drink one of them beers you are always showing me (while i freeze in the rain) and have a good talk about it.

This is a good understanding of a vertical application that when considered for a floor makes sense, it illustrates the principal of transmission interruption and decoupling better than I can

https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing_101/soundproof-a-room-basics

 

[bitbanger]

Comparing the two materials listed, it's a bit tough to compare their compression specs, given they are listed at different percentages. I imagine this is the main factor in deciding if an underlayment is appropriate enough (density may correlate to compression, but ultimately for sake of floor integrity we don't care how heavy the underlayment will be).

Mark do you have an opinion on the QuietWalk in particular? I know it's tough to gauge without having in hand...

 

[C.J.]

Alright, I’ll give you a technical win but for the record I still say an area rug will do wonders.

 

[Mark Brown]

I would rather not offer an opinion on the particular products as I am not personally familiar with them.

At a glance, I would say they are very comparable.

 

[C.J.]

Alright, I’m back to poke the bear. Underlayment supposedly reduces sound transmission but that’s to another level such as a basement or another room but we’re talkin about sound in the same room. What say you now cus I’m back to my original thought that it’s just a sale booster. Maybe there is an improvement but how much and is it even going to be perceptible to anyone. I got questions.

 

[Mark Brown]

Same principal applies. Sound is generated at a constant regardless of its transmission. A footfall will generate the sound energy that it will. How much of it is transferred back into the space is a direct response to how much of it is absorbed or transferred out of the space.

As to how noticeable it is, I still cannot make a proof to test that, unfortunately as I do not have the materials at hand... but now I want to. I bet I could make a small fortune (about 20 dollars) testing all of this nonsense that lives in the grey areas of floor covering. For what it is worth, a quick Google search lists 20 dB as akin to leaves rustling, a whisper from 5 feet away.... for references. So if we want to boil the argument down to is it worth it.... I still cannot answer that as it is personal but I can say the delta reduction in both those pads is around 21.

Nice try though