LVP over tongue and groove subfloor

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Joined
Jun 17, 2021
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8
Location
Montana
I am installing Fortress f2 LVP in my living room, kitchen, and bathroom. My subfloor is 3/4 inch tongue and groove fir. The sub floor runs 45 degrees to the joists and is in good shape. It does have some knots etc. The manufacturer says 1" minimum of subfloor is required. The local store I bought it from told me the 3/4" would be fine if it made sure it was flat using self leveling cement/grout. Should I put in 1/4" of sheeting over the existing floor? If so which types of sheeting will work? Plywood is really expensive at the moment so an alternative would be nice. Thanks.
 
yeah you might want to use an underlayment. I wouldn't worry about a solid inch of flooring, that sounds like crazy talk.
As for the what.... in today's climate of over priced everything I would suggest whatever you can get your hands on.

The minimum requirement for your style of floor covering would be sheathing grade plywood or osb seeing as it is floating. These are not best practice materials however they are acceptable. The key is flat and predominately smooth.
Best use would be an underlayment grade plywood but with a retail price hovering around 80 to 100 dollars that can be a hard pill to swallow.
If it was me, I would go with a 3/8 osb sheathing because I am cheap lol
 
Thank you for answering my question. Home Depot has a 5 mm underlayment for 18 dollars a 4x8 sheet. Looks like ply wood. Would this be sufficient or is it not rigid enough?
 
I think that would be about 3/16th of an inch.
The answer to this question unfortunately depends on the shape of your t&g and I cannot answer that.
Problem is, technically speaking anything under 1/2 and inch for ply and 23/32 for osb is considered a non structural panel and will be subjected to the conformity of the floor it is installed to.
If however your t&g is in good shape and solid then it would work.

Any chance of uploading a photo or a few?

Sorry for being ambiguous but I do not want to offer bad advice.
 
The existing is in reasonable shape but there is some cupping on the edges and the seams between the boards isn't smooth in 30% of the floor space. I should probably sheet it. Pay a little more now and not have to fix it later.
 
The existing is in reasonable shape but there is some cupping on the edges and the seams between the boards isn't smooth in 30% of the floor space. I should probably sheet it. Pay a little more now and not have to fix it later.
Agreed. Under those conditions I would advise a 1/2 inch layer of underlayment grade ply. You need the rigidity. As stated however the use of a sheathing panel is acceptable, what I would personally say is unacceptable is anything under 1/2 an inch as what you need more than anything is stability.
 
The question I would ask first is are you concerned with maintaining a warranty if something goes wrong? If yes, then you need to follow the written installation guidelines to even have a shot at getting someone to respond if the floor needs to be looked at. If no, then do what you feel you need to do to the best of your ability.

The one thing I would point out about this floor is that it has a 2nd generation I4F locking system. They are currently on gen 4 and working on the next one after that. I4F holds the patent on the locking mechanism for the floor and licenses the manufacturer to use it. The older locking systems cost less to license so the 2nd and 3rd tier manufacturers continue to use them on their more price competitive products while the newer generations cost more and tend to be used on the higher end products. Not saying this is bad just pointing out what wouldn't be obvious to someone outside the industry.

The level of manufacturing quality of the locking system and how well the attached cushion gets trimmed so as not to pose a locking problem is pretty critical with these older locks and can be a bit of a challenge for a first time installation. I've seen several of the lower end products have issues with "pad overrun" where the cushion will intrude into the locking space just a hair but it's enough to keep the product from locking properly. It's a pain but if you run into it it'll have to be trimmed out and cleared to seat the lock properly.

Here's where most people get in trouble....
It's ok to use a "budget" or as we typically call it in the industry "builder grade" material but where the disconnect comes in as that these products don't have all the "bells and whistles" that allow for forgiveness in the installation of the product. Things like micro-beveled edges vs square edges add cost to the production of the product but allow for a greater amount of tolerance for subfloor imperfections or lack of prep. As a result the subfloor conditions and floor prep require much greater attention to detail. These older locking systems aren't as tolerant as the new ones either.

To decide on your underlayment...

It's a crap standard but it's what everyone references...the allowable amount of variation is 3/16" or roughly 5mm within a 10' span. What you'll need to do is see if you can buy or borrow a straight edge to check this. A piece of trim metal might also work as long as it's stiff enough not to bow when placed on edge. Keep in mind you need to do this in ALL directions not just two. You'll need to measure the gap between the bottom of the straight edge and the undulations in the subfloor.

If it's greater than the 3/16" standard you'll need to sand down the high spots and level the lows spots with floor patch. I would not use self-leveling I would use a trowelable cementitious floor patch. Self-leveling is not something that most non-pros should attempt. I've been through training and "certified" by the manufacturers we carry multiple times and I wouldn't do one myself.

In addition, most self-leveling products are not made to go over wood substrates without the application of a wire mesh for re-enforcing. It's a very time sensitive and laborious task and it generally takes a team of 3 people to do it without issue.

I know lumber is pretty volatile right now. The futures pricing is beginning to drop but it'll be 60-90 days before that price drop begins to show itself at a retail level.

At the end of the day it's your floor and you know know your capabilities so the best advice I can give is use your best judgement and if you have specific concerns or questions lean on us here to help you through.

I wish you the best and keep us posted on how you're making out.
 
I'm familiar with the leveling measurement. I follow the same procedure with a 10 foot level for approving the surface of bridges at work.

Never used self leveling grout or cement, so I'll plan on sanding the new floor sheeting to remove the high spots. A picture of the existing sub floor is attached.
 

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Assuming I do this 100% in accordance with manufacturers guidelines, and end up with a problem, how likely is it I'll get anything from the manufacturer under warranty? I bought locally if that helps at all.

If anyone has practical experience with a claim it would be great to hear about it.
 
The manufacturer will cover any manufacturing defects. Anything else and you’re SOL. Don’t follow the installation instructions to a T and they won’t even consider a claim even if there is a legit manufacturing defect. I’ve been installing floating floors since the late ‘90’s and have seen a few legit manufacturing defects but they are few and far in between. The majority of problems are installation related issues. Get your floor smooth and flat and you’ll be fine.
 
A large part of my job is dealing with claims and warranty situations.

To add to what Chris (@C.J.) said there are some common aspects to warranties today.

There's a "manufacturing defect warranty". This one always makes me laugh because consumers get all torqued up about the number of years on this part of the warranty. The reality is, if you have a manufacturing defect 99.999% of the time you're going to know it immediately. Manufacturing defects don't show up 6 months, 2 years, 10 year, even 20 years down the road. If it's made wrong you'll know. A visual defect, the plank or tile won't lock together correctly (although that one can be tricky as it can be due to improper installation technique), the product isn't dimensioned correctly, it's out of square, it's cupped, it's bowed. To give you some idea of how often this occurs it's, based on the data I've been privy to it's typically less than .2% (there's a decimal point in front of that two just in case you can't see it). So two tenths of 1% which means that 99.8% of the product output meets specifications and has no defects. It happens, but it's not very often.

The more important one to me is if the product offers a "wear warranty". Wear warranties are real and measurable things. This is where most people get confused. Unless there is a specific section on wear warranty in your documentation then you don't have a wear warranty. Most people think this is covered under "defect" - that's absolutely incorrect. However, while these are real warranties that can be measured and enforced the reality is the manufacturer is not going to go beyond what there testing data shows the floor will handle so the chanced of needing to actually use a wear warranty are pretty much zero. In my 25+ year career I've never even been asked to look at a wear problem and I put floors in some of the most horrible places known to our industry.

The newer warranties in the market are the "water" or "waterproof warranties". There are a couple of confusing things with those - they cover the product itself from being damaged by water damage but just because you put a product that's waterproof over a substrate doesn't mean the substrate is also waterproof. If water gets to the subfloor via the expansion space around the perimeter of the room or through the locking mechanism - the damage to your subfloor is not covered. Frankly if you have a water situation bad enough that you would need a product to be waterproof I can pretty much guarantee that over a wood substrate it's going to most likely damage the subfloor. That's where your insurance comes into play. In other words these "waterproof" warranties are really a marketing thing to give the consumer a "warm fuzzy" that the floor is protecting them. It's not.

All that being said, there is something in buying locally and having a retailer to go back to if you have a problem. There's also a lot in the manufacturer that you choose. Right now because of the explosive growth in the LVT, SPC, WPC flooring segment there are hundreds of "manufacturers" selling product here in the U.S. who aren't really making the product. There are companies throughout Asia (not just China) who are manufacturing these products and working with an importer or even an actual manufacturer here in the U.S. who "private label" the product. That importer could be at any level. For example Shaw, Mohawk, Armstrong, & Mannington all have products that are sourced from China, Vietnam, South Korea, or Malaysia. It could be a retailer who's made a connection with one of these producers and has the financing to private label and market a line under their own brand, it could be a wholesaler who does the same thing. The bottom line as to whether they will respond comes down to two things. How deep are their pockets, and how are they set up with infrastructure - in other words is their a local or regional rep or do they have one or two people who cover the entire country.

I read through the warranty documentation on this product and I can just about promise you're already on your own. I think you're going to be just fine with your floor. Take your time. Get things prepped correctly and follow the instructions as closely as you can. If there's a problem don't call the manufacturer. Follow-up with the retailer you bought from and let them use their leverage with the manufacturer to get the problem resolved.

All the best!
 
All of our residential guys want to kill me when I start talking about that. I've been selling from the technical side way to long and I just can't bring myself to not "disclose" that little secret. To me a lie by omission is the same thing as lying flat out. I'm a full disclosure guy, often to my own detriment but at least I sleep well at night.

P.S. To our admins, it would be so awesome to have an "Agree" option on our Like button. Not a complaint at all, just an observation.
 
P.S. To our admins, it would be so awesome to have an "Agree" option on our Like button. Not a complaint at all, just an observation.

You just opened Pandora’s box because now Mike is going to want a disagree button :p

My buddy used to measure for Lowe’s and they would get mad at him because he would tell the customers that installing a waterproof floor is not the same thing as waterproofing your house. Can’t be too honest, you might blow the sale. Like Mark, this is the same reason I’m not on the sales side of things. I come in after you’ve already been lied to and break the truth to you.
 
There's a lot of days I feel like I'm standing on the edge of a cliff trying to keep a flock of lemmings from going over the edge. The urge within them to go over the edge is so strong it's almost unstoppable. Pretty soon someone will come up with the next "silver bullet" technology and they'll all go chasing after that too.

I use to see my job as trying to protect the flooring contractors, retailers, and installers (my customers) from harm but I've come to realize that most of the harm is almost entirely self inflicted. Anymore, people just want you to tell them what they want to hear so they feel good about the cockamamie ideas they come up with. I just can't do that and I've never been able to. If I lose the sale I honestly don't care because I just don't want to deal with the claims anymore. That's one advantage to being salaried instead of being on commission - my financial stability doesn't depend on my ability to tell the truth. Makes it a whole lot easier to separate the "marketing (read B.S.)" from reality.

I told a friend of mine who's a marketing person that I can't believe they go to school to be taught how to lie. When I went to school we got in trouble for that and you got swatted on the backside. Now, they give you a degree and a big paycheck and tell you thanks for a job well done. It's a crazy world we live in.

I could be a rich man if I'd just learn to say "Sure you can put that high performance non-porous floor over your 10 day old slab because there's "magic juice" in the concrete that will prevent a moisture problem. All of our products are made out of sunshine and rainbows. For every square foot we sell 10 acres of rainforest magically regrow. Our floors will never scratch no matter how many times your fat wife and her three ugly step sisters dance on them with golf spikes!! Our floors are so tough that we guarantee you can drive an M-1 Abrahms tank on them and they won't scratch or get dirty. We have nano-bots that come out at night and clean for you so you never have to clean the floor ever again. The anti-microbial we put in the wear layer will cure cancer and hemorrhoid's so you can sit on your fat ass all day eating bon-bons and watching your favorite episode of the Kardashians."

I practice saying that every day but so far I can't repeat it when I'm actually talking to someone about a floor. I honestly don't know what I'm doing wrong. Maybe it's the laughter.

Sorry for the sarcasm. It's been a long week. :) ;):cheers:
 
You couldn’t have nailed that any better, CFR. I can’t count the number of times customers have gotten mad at me because I didn’t tell them what they wanted to hear. It’s not my job to lie to you and if I have to then we’re not a good fit. I just got done reading an article about how people have gotten so sensitive and thin skinned that even the truth is offensive anymore. Guess I better accelerate my plans of moving to a private island somewhere.
 

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