Material and method recommendations?

[Nukedaddy]

So my kitchen and bath have matching 12“ ceramic tile laid on plywood 30 years ago. Both rooms have cracked tiles or grout lines that follow obvious joints in the underlying plywood. I am guessing the original installer was not aware of decoupling membranes back then.
I am resigned to scraping off all the old tile and sanding/grinding the plywood down flat and filling gaps and gouges from sanding/grinding. Then glueing and screwing a 1/4” fiber cement underpayment to the plywood, then a decoupling membrane, then new tile. Following manufacturer instructions. I like thin grout lines, the thinner the better.
Does anyone have any better suggestions to my plan? Should the old underlying plywood be coated or sealed with any sort of goo to help minimize water intrusion (especially in the bathroom)? Are thin grout lines better or worse at resisting cracks? If I choose larger format tiles like 1’x2’ or 2’x2’ am I helping to prevent issues or buying greater risk?
I am a retired plumber, so I know that tile can be laid to last 100 years and still be good. I don’t need 100 years. I am already 65, but I do like my projects to last.
thanks,
Karl- with a K

 

[Commercial Floor Rep]

Decoupling membranes didn't really exist 30 years ago. They began to come into existence about 20 years ago and it took up until about the last 5 years for the TCNA (Tile Council of North America) and ANSI to recognize them as an accepted installation method. There was a lot of trial and error during that 15 years of gray area to get them perfected to the state they are now.

I don't think that the step of adding the fiber cement underlayment is going to do you much good other than raising the height of your floor.

Take a look at this link and the installation guide and I think you'll see that this should address your uncoupling issue as well as protect the underlaying subfloor from any moisture. If

https://sccpublic.s3-external-1.ama...9300426883102/DITRA Installation Handbook.pdf

The installation guide has very good, layered illustrations that comply with the Current TCNA 141 standard and show you exactly what is needed for any type of wood substrate situation.

With regard to grout joints, they've grown much narrower over last several years as tile manufacturers have gotten better at gauging their tile in large part. Allowing for tighter joints. At the end of the day though it's largely up to the visual that you find acceptable.

The type of grout used - Old style cement, urethane, acrylic, modified epoxy, or full epoxy will determine the level of maintenance you want to do. The older cement grouts are falling out of usage because they require the most maintenance over the life of the floor and they are more susceptible to cracking and staining. I would avoid premix acrylics as they are really more of a DIY gimmick than something most professionals would use if given a choice (that's my opinion and others may have a different view). The urethane's and epoxy hybrid category is where the bulk of the grout usage is today but it is still very market specific in many cases as to who uses what. Laticrete Spectralock 1 is a good product and so is their Spectralock Pro Premium.

Larger format tiles are the norm now with 24"x24", 12"x24", and 18"x18" being towards the small end of things. Using the correct setting materials and trowel notching is the key here. That would be based upon the size of the tile and the recommendations of the specific mortar being used. Like with so many things there are now specific mortars for installations of larger format tile and many mortars that are "light weight" mortars to prevent adding weight to the installation without sacrificing performance.

There are several good brands out there to choose from Schluter, Mapei, Wedi, Custom, Tec, Laticrete, Ardex all make good quality setting materials and most of them also offer uncoupling membrane as well. I always recommend staying with a "systems" approach so if you use membrane from Schluter then use their mortar and the same with all of the others. This ensures that the products will be compatible and that they have been tested to work together. Most of the time when we see problems it's because somebody is "Frankensteining" their own system and they miss something important that causes a problem. The other advantage to a systems approach is that if there is a problem you only have "one throat to choke" rather than having to pull in multiple manufacturers who will most assuredly begin pointing fingers at one another leaving you in the middle with no resolution.

Lastly, I'd recommend you buy your installation supplies from a flooring or tile supply rather than a box store for several reasons. One, they will most likely carry a full product line from a given manufacturer rather than cherry picked items based upon price. Second, the installation products such as grout, mortar and adhesive that the boxes carry are almost always "dumbed down" versions of what the distributors carry. This is because of the pricing requirements that the boxes put on the manufacturers. The products won't often times have the same attributes as the pro grade products.

I wish you the best and hope this helps you with your project!

Chuck with a C

 

[Nukedaddy]

Decoupling membranes didn't really exist 30 years ago. They began to come into existence about 20 years ago and it took up until about the last 5 years for the TCNA (Tile Council of North America) and ANSI to recognize them as an accepted installation method. There was a lot of trial and error during that 15 years of gray area to get them perfected to the state they are now.

I don't think that the step of adding the fiber cement underlayment is going to do you much good other than raising the height of your floor.

Take a look at this link and the installation guide and I think you'll see that this should address your uncoupling issue as well as protect the underlaying subfloor from any moisture. If

https://sccpublic.s3-external-1.amazonaws.com/sys-master/images/hca/h9e/9300426883102/DITRA Installation Handbook.pdf

The installation guide has very good, layered illustrations that comply with the Current TCNA 141 standard and show you exactly what is needed for any type of wood substrate situation.

With regard to grout joints, they've grown much narrower over last several years as tile manufacturers have gotten better at gauging their tile in large part. Allowing for tighter joints. At the end of the day though it's largely up to the visual that you find acceptable.

The type of grout used - Old style cement, urethane, acrylic, modified epoxy, or full epoxy will determine the level of maintenance you want to do. The older cement grouts are falling out of usage because they require the most maintenance over the life of the floor and they are more susceptible to cracking and staining. I would avoid premix acrylics as they are really more of a DIY gimmick than something most professionals would use if given a choice (that's my opinion and others may have a different view). The urethane's and epoxy hybrid category is where the bulk of the grout usage is today but it is still very market specific in many cases as to who uses what. Laticrete Spectralock 1 is a good product and so is their Spectralock Pro Premium.

Larger format tiles are the norm now with 24"x24", 12"x24", and 18"x18" being towards the small end of things. Using the correct setting materials and trowel notching is the key here. That would be based upon the size of the tile and the recommendations of the specific mortar being used. Like with so many things there are now specific mortars for installations of larger format tile and many mortars that are "light weight" mortars to prevent adding weight to the installation without sacrificing performance.

There are several good brands out there to choose from Schluter, Mapei, Wedi, Custom, Tec, Laticrete, Ardex all make good quality setting materials and most of them also offer uncoupling membrane as well. I always recommend staying with a "systems" approach so if you use membrane from Schluter then use their mortar and the same with all of the others. This ensures that the products will be compatible and that they have been tested to work together. Most of the time when we see problems it's because somebody is "Frankensteining" their own system and they miss something important that causes a problem. The other advantage to a systems approach is that if there is a problem you only have "one throat to choke" rather than having to pull in multiple manufacturers who will most assuredly begin pointing fingers at one another leaving you in the middle with no resolution.

Lastly, I'd recommend you buy your installation supplies from a flooring or tile supply rather than a box store for several reasons. One, they will most likely carry a full product line from a given manufacturer rather than cherry picked items based upon price. Second, the installation products such as grout, mortar and adhesive that the boxes carry are almost always "dumbed down" versions of what the distributors carry. This is because of the pricing requirements that the boxes put on the manufacturers. The products won't often times have the same attributes as the pro grade products.

I wish you the best and hope this helps you with your project!

Chuck with a C

Man! That is what I am talking about when I compliment a poster on a detailed and comprehensive reply!
Chuck with a C, you da man!

 

[Incognito]

Man! That is what I am talking about when I compliment a poster on a detailed and comprehensive reply!
Chuck with a C, you da man!

He does that a lot.

 

[Commercial Floor Rep]

He does that a lot.

I learned it from you!

 

[highup]

I learned it from you!

So which one of you is the elder statesman?

 

[DarisMulkin]

Me.

 

[Commercial Floor Rep]

I think incog and I are about the same age I might be a little older. I can't remember. Daris is definitely older than both of us and probably forgot more than I'll ever know.

 

[DarisMulkin]

Musk bought Twitter

I think incog and I are about the same age I might be a little older. I can't remember. Daris is definitely older than both of us and probably forgot more than I'll ever know.

Not even close CFR Or Incog either. But I am older I'll take that.

 

[Incognito]

Not even close CFR Or Incog either. But I am older I'll take that.

I think incog and I are about the same age I might be a little older. I can't remember. Daris is definitely older than both of us and probably forgot more than I'll ever know.

62 in June.

My joke to CFR about being verbose was obviously taken in the tone in which it was meant. I cant say I can recall anyone with the very specific info related to my life's work who is willing to share that with the internets. I'm known in my little world for giving 1000 word answers where they were really hoping for 25 words or less. It's been nice to pretty much always be in the financial position to say..........hey, you asked ME the question. I'll answer it my way.

Well............maybe sometimes they didn't even ask. That never stopped me either.