Tilts tent/pop up 3 month after installed vinyl planks over tile

[htse]

Basic summary (TL;DR)
3 Months after installing vinyl plank flooring over tile, the vinyl floor suddenly buckled up 1/2." The floor installer cut open the vinyl and found that the tiles underneath has shifted and tented.
Any idea what caused this to happen? The same issue popped up 2 feet away. How should I fix this next issue so I won't have another popped up tile?


Expanded scenario with details
I am the original owner of a Los Angeles area house built in 1989 (mild year-round temp, low humidity). We installed tile (ceramic or porcelain? Not sure). Each tile is about 12" by 12" with 1/4" grout. We have never had a tile come loose or "tenting" up. December of 2020 we installed vinyl plank flooring over the tile. See the photos of the detail of the vinyl boards we used. They are the click lock type with 1/16" foam backing. The installers just put the board directly on top of the tile, no glue or additional foam pads.

3 months later in March the vinyl floor suddenly buckled up 1/2." The floor installer cut open the vinyl and found that the tiles underneath has shifted and tented.

He has since glued down the tile and replaced the vinyl floor. It is now 2 weeks later and now I'm noticing the adjacent area 2 feet away starting to buckle up.

This area is in a hallway next to the washing machine. Before the vinyl flooring, we have had a few instance where the machine has leaked in the past, but we always wipe up within the hour. There has been no leaks since we installed the vinyl (new washing machine). The concrete underneath is ok, no cracks of raised edges.

I'm very certain the same situation is happening. I've never really understood the root cause of the first tile buckling. My concern is that still will happen again at any part of the 800 sqft of tile we have.

Here are my questions

1. Any idea what caused this to happen? Recall we have had this tile for 30 year and never had a loose tile
2. How should I fix this next issue so I wont have another popped up tile? This new tent area is 2 feet from the original tent area so I'm wondering if the issue just propagated down

 

[highup]

Is the tile on a concrete slab or a wood substructure with backer board or a membrane on top of it?

 

[highup]

Sorry I didn't notice you said concrete.

 

[highup]

Since you said it was installed in December that would be one of your wettest or should I say dampest months. I'm betting in March you don't have much rainfall at all but that is when this problem occurred?
This is not my area of expertise but I'm thinking expansion and contraction of the slab. Putting the vinyl planking on top of the tile would allow some moisture to build up because the grout can no longer breathe and allow moisture to come out. But my logic says that would cause the slab to expand not contract. I hope someone else can come up with something cuz this is odd.

 

[highup]

Do you know if the tile is installed directly on the concrete? Usually there is a crack isolation membrane separating the concrete from the tile. It used to be cement board but more commonly it's a plastic material made to accept the thinset mortar.

 

[Mark Brown]

Those ceramic tile will accumulate moisture now that they cannot breathe, i am with highup on this one. As this process occurs, another happens in tandum the tile expand. As their moisture content grows over time, they expand, as they expand the bond created by the mortar is overcome and there is your tenting and loose tile. There is no fix for this problem other than to remove all the tile. Its nice no one tells you these things until it is too late isn't it?

 

[Incognito]

Looks like that "tent" may be running along a structural crack or construction joint in your concrete slab. Not sure if the vinyl had any causal factors. It could "just" have been a weak/poor bond from the porcelain tile to the slab. Usually when you pick up the tile and look at the back (and the slab) you'll see where the failure lies.

If there's a construction joint or structural crack you'll want to remove all the loose tile and fill back in with patch----add a primer/bonding agent. If ALL the tile is weak/poorly bonded you need to demo down to bare slab, including grinding off the thin set.

Prior to laying the vinyl the installer should have tapped around to determine the strength of the bond of the tile to the slab. But in today's Blow And Go World it's not really in their best interest to do so. The good news is the vinyl will come up easy.

 

[htse]

@highup Thanks for the feedback. I believe when we installed it was a dry day (as it usually is for Los Angeles even for winter). I'm not sure what was between the tile and the concrete as when they did the tile reseating I was away work. Now that there is a new issue, I will make sure to take photos or someone else take some. Is there a type that is better than the other at preventing such tenting?

 

[htse]

@Mark Brown Yes it seems like this is likely. And unfortunately the installer suggested this method saying it was a common way to install, no need to remove tile. Thanks for feedback

 

[htse]

@Incognito Thanks what is a concrete patch and primer/bonding agent you recommend? This is something I treat directly to the slab after removing the tile correct?

 

[highup]

@Mark Brown Yes it seems like this is likely. And unfortunately the installer suggested this method saying it was a common way to install, no need to remove tile. Thanks for feedback

It is a common way to install. I just installed a product called provenza. Very similar to cortec. I did a kitchen last year then a large master bathroom and the main bath a few months ago on the same house. This was wood construction, but after seeing what happened to yours it makes me Leary of installing on concrete. I'm betting what you have is not a common problem. Personally, I would not have expected something like that or even thought of something like that happening.

 

[Mark Brown]

See, unfortunately for all of us, on a daily basis we are subjected to the science experiment known as floor covering. Just because something "should" work does not mean that it will or that catastrophic failure is not waiting right around the corner.
I would have to disagree with incognito on this one, a crack or shift in the concrete would not typically cause tile to disengage from the slab so much as crack along the line of movement, this is what anti fracture and crack isolation membranes are designed to alleviate and why we see so many tile with oddly formed cracks running along them, it simply telegraphs though the tile from the slab with the bond between the tile and the slab carrying the movement through to the tile.

It makes rather perfect, if not profound, sense to me to think that tile would continue to expand under these conditions until a critical level was reached and the only place for the pressure to go would be up.

 

[Incognito]

@Incognito Thanks what is a concrete patch and primer/bonding agent you recommend? This is something I treat directly to the slab after removing the tile correct?

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https://www.ardexamericas.com/product/ardex-sd-p/
This is IF moisture is not a causal factor. If moisture is blowing your tile off the slab forget about patching back loose ones and covering with vinyl. You really need a good look UNDER the tile at that slab and the back of the tiles that popped loose.

PROBABLY going to need a complete demo. I was throwing out your last beacon of hope that if it's JUST a slight (joking) structural crack/joint in the slab you could fill in the failed tiles and get quite a few more years out of the existing flooring system.

Longer term that ceramic probably needs to be removed.

 

[htse]

Thanks for the feedback, the installer said he has never seem such an issue in the past 10 years he has been installing over tile. Im giving him the benefit of the doubt, as I cant seem to find anyone else having this issue searching the forum.

Perhaps this is a coincidence that 30 years of no problem and then tiles failed soon after vinyl floor installation? I dont think so though

 

[Incognito]

Thanks for the feedback, the installer said he has never seem such an issue in the past 10 years he has been installing over tile. Im giving him the benefit of the doubt, as I cant seem to find anyone else having this issue searching the forum.

Perhaps this is a coincidence that 30 years of no problem and then tiles failed soon after vinyl floor installation? I dont think so though

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Without testing of the slab we could only offer guesses based on experience how much moisture is playing a part. Picking up a tile immediately and looking for damp would have possible showed VISIBLE evidence of moisture. You might be confused about moisture VAPOR and what that's about. It passes through the slab as a vapor (gas), not normally in liquid form unless there's large cracks.

Over time this becomes problematic for most types of flooring, some worse than others and some slabs with higher alkalinity would be more destructive to floorcovering and their related systems.

People cover existing flooring all the time with little or no problems, but it is a RISK your installer ought to have insisted you sign off on------UNDERSTOOD and assumed liability

 

[Jon]

Even Karndean mention laying over tile with a glue down product
The last few lines

1KD3306USA 05/19(888) 266-4343 | [email protected] | www.karndean.comGeneral InformationGluedown floors should be installed in accordance with: - the requirements of ASTM F710, AS/NZS 1884 standards or other applicable National Standards and Building Codes for the installation of Resilient Flooring, and instructions below to ensure a quality fit. These floors are not suitable for installation outdoors nor in rooms that will be continually wet. Before installation, all materials must be checked to ensure that batches are identical and free from defects. Complaints regarding clearly identifiable defects cannot be accepted after installation. Preparation and installation should not begin until all other trades have completed their work. Acclimation of MaterialAt least 24 hours prior to installation, flooring materials must be removed from packaging (tiles and planks may be stacked but must be rested flat) and allowed to condition in the room where the installation is to take place. Room temperature should be kept between 64 - 81°F (18-27°C). If tiles and adhesive have been stored outside this temperature range, then it is recommended that time for acclimation be increased to 48 hours. Subfloors Good preparation of the subfloor is essential to the final overall floor appearance. The subfloor should be hard smooth, clean, dry and free from defects; irregularities in the subfloor will show through the finished floor. Subfloor surface regularity should meet 3/16” in 10’ (2.5 mm) ref ASTM E1486.Moisture testing in Subfloors This must be performed on all concrete subfloors, as measured by an anhydrous calcium chloride test kit per ASTM F-1869 test method or using an in-situ probe test for relative humidity (RH) per ASTM F-2170. Three tests must be performed for the first 1000 sq. ft. (100 m²), and one for every 1000 sq. ft. (100m²) thereafter. Results must be recorded and an appropriate adhesive with the proper moisture limits should be chosen or a DPM must be used.1. Solid Subfloors • Concrete/Sand Cement Screeds: These subfloors should comply with the requirements of ASTM F710/AS/NZS 1884 country specific standard. • New and Old: For all concrete floors, mechanically abrade the floor to remove contamination (laitance, paint, drywall mud, plaster, adhesive etc.) then prepare the floor to ASTM F710/AS/NZS 1884 standards.• Power Floated Concrete: Power floated floors require abrasion to remove surface laitance and prepared to ASTM F710/AS/NZS 1884 standards. • ‘Anhydrite’ (Calcium Sulphate-Gypsum): Anhydrite screeds can be difficult to identify and can be mistaken for more traditional cement based products. In the case of the floor screed not being sufficiently dry, consult the manufacturer and ensure that the correct smoothing compound is selected. Gypsum floors must be sealed with a product designed to seal gypsum. All gypsum floors must be at a minimum of 2000 psi on a wood substrate and 3000 psi on a concrete substrate.• Painted Floors: Mechanically remove all paint back to the original base and prepare surface to meet ASTM F710/AS/NZS 1884 standards. 2. Wood SubfloorsApproved underlayment grade plywood or underlayment panels must be installed as per manufacturer’s instructions over all OSB, MDF, Chipboard, or Particle Board subfloors. Underlayment panels are used to correct deficiencies in wood subfloors and to provide a smooth, even firmly-attached surface on which to attach Karndean Designflooring products. Suitable underlayments include American Plywood Association (APA)* underlayment-grade plywood or products engineered by the manufacturer to be used as resilient floor underlayment’s. Responsibility for the performance of the underlayment rests with the manufacturer of that product. Plywood joints and fastener heads must be smoothed over using a cement-based skim coat or a full coat of a cement-based patch or levelling compound per manufacturer’s instructions to a minimum flatness of 3/16” in 10’.• Wood Mosaic Panel, Woodblock: Remove these products and treat the subfloor appropriately. • Laminate, Floating or non-attached floors: These floor coverings must be removed together with any underlay and flooring accessories. The subfloor should be treated appropriately. 3. Other Existing Subfloors: • Resilient floor coverings (e.g. linoleum, PVC, thermoplastic, Carpet, cork: Best practice is to remove existing floor covering and all traces of adhesive residues. Then treat the subfloor appropriately. • Porcelain/Quarry Tile/Mosaic/Terrazzo/ Ceramics: Test floor for evidence of damp. If after testing, dampness is detected consult your supplier. Check floor area for unstable, loose or broken tiles, waxes and sealers. Remove loose pieces and fill deep holes with rapid drying mortar. Degrease, rinse and abrade the surface of the floor. Apply a Portland cement-based floor patch or embossed leveller as per manufacturer’s instructions to standards of ASTM F710/AS/NZS 1884