To pad, or not to pad

[highup]

Heres the runner material for some stairs I'm about to start. The total thickness is about 1/4".
Two flights and a landing. The stairs will be upholstered.
The landing I figured to stretch in wall to wall...... They wanted wall to wall on the landing.
The stairs are done as runners, the edges have been serged.
Here's the material.
I requested the runners to each be one piece each.
I didn't know the material was 15' wide
....just sayin', there's gonna be enough.

 

[highup]

My question pertains to padding. We have 32 oz felt at the warehouse. That might work for the landing. I do have some short pin tack strip.
Next issue is the stairs.
Am I better off with no pad, and just stapling it. It's thin stuff. Or maybe use a thin, non skid material like rug-hold, the type that keeps rugs on carpet from shifting around, then use staples..... or hand tacking.
I can't imagine the price of the runner material that was ordered, and including the serging. Boggle my mind.

 

[JPfloor]

Is that Stanton’s goods? That last picture looks like “Stonehedge”. I remember that stuff from 30 years ago. Installed a ton of it. Even with the D pin strip the pins are going to shine through. This is gonna sound like hack work but on the steps I always used a heavy felt padding leaving a 1/4” space where step meets riser. Stapled carpet under the nose, stretched to the crotch and stapled it in. If you can find the shorter 3/8th” staples that would help. Then chisel it in to get a nice crisp line and bury the staples. No tack strip. Using no padding cheapens the effect IMHO. Use caution to get it straight the first time because there’s no pulling it back to readjust. In the flat areas where strip is required, I would always use a hammer and the flat side of my stair tool to flatten out the pins after the installation was complete and all tucked in. I’d use latex in all the gullies. If the baseboard can be installed after all the better. Again use caution, this is a very permanent installation. A restretch would be a mess. Be careful to keep equal tension throughout or those lines are gonna look crooked and wavy…. Have fun, I don’t miss that stuff a bit!

 

[highup]

Yes, it's Stanton. I can't tell from the construction of his design to have much padding under it. The only thing they have at the store is 32oz. I checked today and the place that I got those shorter staples from was out of them.
I don't know why I didn't think of calling Stanton and ask for their recommendations on the pad type or whether to use pad on the stairs. I've never installed it but I assume with the flat weave type carpets you don't put a pad under them .....or do you?
This material has been at the warehouse for a month and a half and I didn't realize how different the construction of this material is.
So here's the holiday and I was going to work over the weekend and I'm not sure how to proceed. This material is way, way too expensive for me to screw up.

 

[JPfloor]

Sy Cohen, the guy who started Stanton, began his career in retail before he started importing. He did both for a while. I’m sure he’s long retired by now. His son took over the retail division here on Long Island in the 90s. He of course pushed his own product in his retail division. I installed for him back in the 80s… We installed a lot of it. We always used pad. A 32oz synthetic is what we used. Commercial pad, definitely nothing too soft.
Doesn’t seam well. Cross seams are out of the question. Length seam take some extra time to seal properly. It came in 13’ 2” widths back then.

I can’t believe they’re still making that stuff. Installed a lot of it in the mansions on the north shore. It was always very popular with interior decorators. Not so much with the installers.

If you have to cut the runner (try not to) and restart it can be done under the nose (butt the nose to the riser) plenty of sealer on the cross cut edges. Bring contact cement. If you own a hand gun that shoots tiny narrow staples (Duofast stopped making them a while ago) that might come in handy.

 

[highup]

I just have the standard Duo fast gun. You're saying tack everything and use 32 oz pad even on the steps? If a guy needed to shorten the pins further, a layer of duct tape or two works. On standard tack strip I've even used that heavy black gorilla tape as a pin 'shortener'. I'm having a hard time imagining tacking the landing. See if it ever develops a tiny pucker you'd be screwed.
.....oh wait, I'd be screwed
There's no price tag on the labor here. I could even use my Anchorite tool and use appropriately sized wire nails instead of those 9/16 staples.
Because of its construction, I can't tell if this material has any stretch in width or length. It's construction isn't like any standard woven carpet I've seen or installed. Only thing I like about it is it's pliable.

 

[DarisMulkin]

I did a flat weave once and only had c strip. I had a cut off roll of cheap vinyl on the van and cut it big enough to lay approximately 1 " over the pad. Pounded it down with a rubber mallet on the strip. Man did that work out great.

 

[JPfloor]

No No .... Tack strip on all the flat work... And yes, Pad on the steps, we used to use 28oz. or 32 oz., just no tack strip on the steps!

The tape or something of the like on the tackless is a good plan.

 

[highup]

No No .... Tack strip on all the flat work... And yes, Pad on the steps, we used to use 28oz.vor 32 oz., just no tack strip on the steps!

Well, I got a lot of 9/16 staples. 🫣
I'm stopping in town anyway, but that's probably a waste of time.
I did call Stanton this morning and left a message for Ray. I think I talked with him once about another carpet. Guessin' Turkey eve is a day off.

 

[MSLI]

Years ago I was able to find shorter duo-fast staples at a roofing supplier. I painted the top of the staples to closely match the carpet, as per Dobby I must have extra hiding somewhere ?

Yes ! It must have pad to create gully.

JP that name Sy Cohen sounds familiar, but I did not know he Started Stanton.

Yep ! Do tackless on landing and use filler material to shorten pins.

Hey High and JP , is this carpet considered an Ingrain ? In other words it has no definitive underside / backing material. Make sure you get the right side up

I like to stabilize the back of flimsy carpet with appx. 1” of hot glue at all starting and stopping points on the steps, plus latex or contact cement on the cut edge, depending on Fiber type. Duck tape may actually be good enough, plus sealer.

Have Fun, take pics and share

 

[JPfloor]

I used to hit the top of the staples with a sharpie…It helped.

As memory serves the last one on the right is woven but has a secondary jute backing. The first one on the left has no definitive backing. The one in the middle I’m not familiar with. That’s if it’s the same stuff I’m thinking of. Sure looks the same. As I said, I can’t believe they’re still making it. Even when you break your butt to do the best installation you can it’s still ugly…🫣 Just my opinion…

Sometime in the 70s or maybe even earlier Sy Cohen started Country Carpet. A high end retail shop on Long Island. From there he grew into the importing business now know as Stanton. Stanton has bought out several other distributors since. He’s got to be in his 80s or or even 90s by now. I couldn’t tell ya who’s running the show these days. Country Carpet is still in business too.

 

[highup]

The pins don't protrude through this material with the short pin tack strip that I had. Being this was a holiday week I kind of drug my feet getting started on this one.
I made the bullnose piece knowing that the landing was two layers of 3/4 inch plywood so I went ahead and made the bullnose piece.
I did that on Thanksgiving Day and then took it over and cut out a section of the floor so that I could replace it with the bullnose and discovered the riser was an eighth of an inch taller than the plywood.
Also, I used a piece of 2x4 that had beautiful grain in it to make this piece. With an inch and a half of overhang, the three and a half inch widths just didn't seem right and I couldn't modify it so I made another piece out of 3/4 inch plywood with another layer of quarter inch plywood glued and clamped in place using tight Bond 2.
For where the landing wrapped over my new bullnose, I measured and cut the piece so it butted to the riser then I folded it back over and coated it with a good heavy slobber of acrylic latex and dried it with a hair dryer. I figured the extra stability would help because I stretched across the bull nose then stapled under and then stretched away from that bullnose to the wall.
It's a small landing only 6 ft 5 in long and 3 ft something wide.
Anyway, I've got the landing completed and it's in place so the runners on the upper and lower sections will line up with the pattern on the landing.
Why is it not good to use a piece of tack strip at the back of the stair treads? The tacks on the strip will not protrude through the carpet.
I've watched one of the internet staple jockeys run rows of staples across stairs and for some reason it just feels tacky putting staples at the crotch of a step. Under the nose, I get it.

 

[JPfloor]

I left the strip off the steps because even with the short pins it showed through and you could see the drop off from the thickness of the pad to the tack strip. Also a potential hazard with bare feet. If you’re not having that problem I see no reason not to use it. Maybe a good idea to try a step or two with the strip, see how you like it.

 

[highup]

Thanks, I'll do a little test on the first step at the bottom of the stairway. I'll check again around the perimeter since I've already tack stripped that.
I peeled apart a little scrap of the carpet and it's construction is different than I originally thought.
It's obviously woven but totally different than what I would consider a typical woven product which doesn't stretch in width. This product does. I probably stretched it 3/8 to 1/2 an inch across the 6 and 1/2 ft width on the landing.
I don't know if the backing that is visible is simply for show, or if it's all that beneficial to the structure. Possibly a little of both. The wool material has the action back very well adhered. It doesn't peel away like it does on many regular carpets.
It feels like a very nice piece of material and I'm sure it cost a butt load.

 

[JPfloor]

Oh yea… what you’re showing has a primary and secondary backing. That is way different than I remember. What I remember was like trying to install a bathroom towel…

The pattern you’re showing there, as I recall, had no secondary fabric backing, just sizing. I would say this is a definite improvement over how they were making it in the 80s. I would certainly use tack strip with that… Sorry for the confusion.

 

[highup]

Oh yea… what you’re showing has a primary and secondary backing. That is way different than I remember. What I remember was like trying to install a bathroom towel…

The pattern you’re showing there, as I recall, had no secondary fabric backing, just sizing. I would say this is a definite improvement over how they were making it in the 80s. I would certainly use tack strip with that… Sorry for the confusion.

I like confusion. With conversation, were educating the masses!
.......naw, let's be honest, I only care about me.
Today, I used a gallon of gas, 30 minutes drive time to and fro and here's today's total accomplishment. Pathetic isn't it.
I tested leaving a gap and this amount works well with the carpets thickness. Close to 3/8" The gully can be used to tilt the carpet left or right to keep the material centered if need be.
This was just a test.
Had this been an actual installation, I might have completed something.
This post will self destruct in 5 seconds.
The warehouse guy was sick, so Superman to the rescue.
....dat be me.
I had to stop what I'd started, clean up my mess, then race to the warehouse.
There was a tile delivery arriving at 2:00, and someone picking up that same tile at the same time..... That pickup didn't happen until an hour and a half later.
A contractor was supposed to pick up a pallet of tile at the same time. He showed up close to 5pm....
I had just removed the forks and put on the stinger.
So I removed the stinger, put the forks back on, loaded his tile, put the stinger back on to deal with the carpet cuts I made and then proceeded to restacking the pyramid of carpet that I had disassembled.
.......then I removed the stinger and put the forks back on for tomorrow morning. I've got to load 21 boxes of LVP for a property management business.
I locked up the warehouse at 6:00
I hope tomorrow to at least finish the lower flight of stairs.
Film at 11:00
Please Lord, no warehouse duty!

 

[highup]

You will notice duct tape on the back side of the tread next to the tack strip. I put two layers of tape there and that brought the pad thickness up slightly above the tack strip itself. That area will never be walked on but to eliminate any chances of profiling..... well what the heck, might as well go the extra foot.

 

[highup]

Oh yea… what you’re showing has a primary and secondary backing. That is way different than I remember. What I remember was like trying to install a bathroom towel…

The pattern you’re showing there, as I recall, had no secondary fabric backing, just sizing. I would say this is a definite improvement over how they were making it in the 80s. I would certainly use tack strip with that… Sorry for the confusion.

I like confusion. With conversation, were educating the masses!
.......naw, let's be honest, I only care about me.
Today, I used a gallon of gas, 30 minutes drive time to and fro and here's today's total accomplishment. Pathetic isn't it.
I tested leaving a gap and this amount works well with the carpets thickness. Close to 3/8" The gully can be used to tilt the carpet left or right to keep the material centered if need be.
This was just a test.
Had this been an actual installation, I might have completed something.
This post will self destruct in

 

[highup]

Weird double post.

 

[JPfloor]

Wow! You have patient customers! Around here everyone’s in a hurry. They would have thrown me out of the house after the 2nd day.

Glad it’s working out!