Where do I start ?

[Magnolya]

Decided to lay down vinyl sheet in the kitchen. There are several humps in the floor that need to be taken care of before putting new floor down so started investigating by peeling up cracked peel and stick tile where the humps are. What a mess! The humps are as a result of islands of 4 different layers of Linoleum flooring dating back to the mid 70's that were left stuck to the floor and new lino placed on top. The areas where all layers of flooring material were successfully removed is badly gouged and delaminated plywood subfloor. After spending almost a week trying to remove these " islands " it occured to me that i might be dealing with asbestos in the first two layers so i have stopped trying to remove it and am wondering what is the best plan of action going forward. I have removed the majority of the humps and it appears that the remainder of the floor is still 4 layers of flooring. I need to fill in the areas that were removed to bring up to the same level as the intact flooring. Do i use self leveling compound ?
I am a 68 year old woman who will be doing this on my own. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Mark Brown]

OI!
So that looks like what it is and what it is is a mess. Don't you just love when the short comings of others lands squarely in your lap?
At this point, I would have to say best case scenario would be to install a 1/2 inch sheet of plywood over the whole thing and then lay some underlayment grade plywood on that. Second to best thing would be some 1/2 inch good one side plywood. While this is not really a recommended practice, it would at least get you out of that mess.
Third least likely (possibly best) option would be to increase your fire insurance and then light a lot of candles close to some drapes and go for a nice long drive.

Abatement is likely out of the question due to the price, however i cannot in good conscience recommend to keep removing those layers as i would bet dollars to doughnuts one or more of them are containing. Without the ability to remove that sandwich it would not be advisable to try cementitious floor repair options which brings us back to my first suggestions. The reason for recommended no less than a 1/2 inch panel would be that it has the strength required to span those divots and not make new depressions and the like.

Good Luck to you.

 

[Magnolya]

Thanks for your reply Mark. Just wondering why you would not recommend a cementitious repair? I was hoping that would work due to having limited financial means.

 

[Mark Brown]

with that much material in various states of bond and compression it is only a short matter of time before everything cracks and breaks and leaves an even bigger mess.
If financial constraints are of a paramount concern, you could attempt to secure the edges of those removed sections with a hammer tacker and then spot patch it all or alternatively ring shank nails. That might get you through.

 

[Incognito]

Patch is going to be mixed with water. Moisture from the patch will affect the existing materials' bond to the substrate.....layer upon layer in an unpredictable manner.

It wouldn't hurt anything to TRY a cementitious patch to see the reaction. As Mark advises above cut away any loose crap first and staple/nail/screw down the edges prior to applying the Ardex Feather Finish. Mix the patch according to directions. DO NOT OVER WATER.
Give the patch a day or two to set up and then tippy tap the patch and all around to determine if you got a good bond and didn't create any problems. Mark's initial advise is what any pro would want to do if they were to warranty the project. In your house we can't tell you what to do. Just realize no manufacturer of flooring will be responsible if years down the road that patch starts buckling.

Good luck!

 

[Magnolya]

Patch is going to be mixed with water. Moisture from the patch will affect the existing materials' bond to the substrate.....layer upon layer in an unpredictable manner.

It wouldn't hurt anything to TRY a cementitious patch to see the reaction. As Mark advises above cut away any loose crap first and staple/nail/screw down the edges prior to applying the Ardex Feather Finish. Mix the patch according to directions. DO NOT OVER WATER.
Give the patch a day or two to set up and then tippy tap the patch and all around to determine if you got a good bond and didn't create any problems. Mark's initial advise is what any pro would want to do if they were to warranty the project. In your house we can't tell you what to do. Just realize no manufacturer of flooring will be responsible if years down the road that patch starts buckling.

Good luck!
[/ As Mark advises above cut away any loose crap first and staple/nail/screw down the edges prior to applying the Ardex Feather Finish]

Let me explain further what i have done. I used a reciprocating saw with a scraper attachment to remove as much of the various " islands" as i could. What remains just wont budge, not even the layers. I was able to remove some of the " islands" down to the sub floor but gouged some of the plywood in doing so.
Do i still need to screw or nail down the remaining islands since i cant even loosen the layers with the reciprocating saw scraper tool ?
Is using Bondo and option ?

 

[Mark Brown]

So, other than your self adhesive vinyl tile by the looks of it those 3 other various layers of vinyl are either rotogravure vinyl or possibly a Corlon in the mix. All of them are mineral backed/paper backed. This means that when they come into contact with moisture, they will wick said moisture into them. On top of that fun fact is the other fact that some if not all of them are installed with water soluble adhesives which will have any number of strange reaction to moisture.
Ok, now that we determined what will happen lets determine why it is probably/maybe/possibly bad.....
NO ONE KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN IT HAPPENS!!
Ok, that about sums it up.
So here is what will likely happen. You slap down some floor patching compound, the edges of the vinyl will curl or release a little bit.... you scrape that off and do it again. More moisture more curl.... scrape that off and one more time. Chances are that by now, there is enough dried flooring patch involved to absorb the majority of the moisture from new patch and your sandwich stays the same as it is. At this point, then you can smooth out the whole thing and install some vinyl.
This is simply not the recommended approach but at the same time, it is something everyone i have ever met has done. As incognito has mentioned, it is not approved as an installation method by any manufacturer and most if not all of them recommend installing over no more than one layer of existing floor covering but none of that is to say that it will not work, I would go so far as to say it will work.... it just is not as cut and dry as "patch smooth and go"
Also.... do not use bondo. Use a cementitious flooring patch, its what they are designed, preferably one that is heavily modified with polymer such as Incog mentioned like Ardex FF.

 

[Incognito]

SHEET vinyl is really out of the question given your conditions, budget and skill set.

They make "floating" LVT/Laminate/Engineered wood and other types of "click-lock" or tongue and groove assemblies you need to consider. Rarely do I recommend this system, but it's essentially IDEAL for what you are striving for.

 

[highup]

SHEET vinyl is really out of the question given your conditions, budget and skill set.

They make "floating" LVT/Laminate/Engineered wood and other types of "click-lock" or tongue and groove assemblies you need to consider. Rarely do I recommend this system, but it's essentially IDEAL for what you are striving for.

But the surface she would need to end up with would need to be extremely flat. That would not be an easy task.

I have used isocyanate or super glue around the edges of those loose pieces before. Remove any loose material, then run a bead of super glue around the edges. It will soak into the edges of those pieces and bond them. It can be extremely smelly when the material flashes off, so have a couple of windows or doors open on opposite sides of the house. Hardware stores such as true value will probably have larger bottles of super glue and in thick and thin versions.
Once that's completed and it's cured, which shouldn't take very long maybe an hour, mix up some filler and spread it around the edges of those uneven areas. Just create a 6-in feather edge from the edge of material out onto the floor. Before it totally hardens be sure to scrape off any extra floor patch that you don't want to be there.
Vacuum the floor and after this first layer is completed and dry, you can be a more aggressive with your filler and just go about the rest of your leveling.
After each layer or application, use a razor scraper to scrape off any high spots. Don't wait for it to totally dry to start scraping or you'll be sorry. Scrape when it's firm and still 'scrapable' but not totally hard.
Vacuum the floor again and add more filler until you can get the floor as smooth as you can get it.
What you are about to attempt is not easy. It's also not something you can do with one smooth spread of filler. I would assume it will take at least three. Two to do the filling, then after the floors scraped smooth again you want a slightly thinner mixture to skim coat and blend everything together.

 

[Magnolya]

But the surface she would need to end up with would need to be extremely flat. That would not be an easy task.

I have used isocyanate or super glue around the edges of those loose pieces before. Remove any loose material, then run a bead of super glue around the edges. It will soak into the edges of those pieces and bond them. It can be extremely smelly when the material flashes off, so have a couple of windows or doors open on opposite sides of the house. Hardware stores such as true value will probably have larger bottles of super glue and in thick and thin versions.
Once that's completed and it's cured, which shouldn't take very long maybe an hour, mix up some filler and spread it around the edges of those uneven areas. Just create a 6-in feather edge from the edge of material out onto the floor. Before it totally hardens be sure to scrape off any extra floor patch that you don't want to be there.
Vacuum the floor and after this first layer is completed and dry, you can be a more aggressive with your filler and just go about the rest of your leveling.
After each layer or application, use a razor scraper to scrape off any high spots. Don't wait for it to totally dry to start scraping or you'll be sorry. Scrape when it's firm and still 'scrapable' but not totally hard.
Vacuum the floor again and add more filler until you can get the floor as smooth as you can get it.
What you are about to attempt is not easy. It's also not something you can do with one smooth spread of filler. I would assume it will take at least three. Two to do the filling, then after the floors scraped smooth again you want a slightly thinner mixture to skim coat and blend everything together.

Thanks for the superglue suggestion. I will give this a go as i want to try any and all suggestions to prevent problems up the road.

 

[Magnolya]

I am now considering peel and stick tile as an alternative to sheet vinyl. That is what is currently on the floor and was fine where the floor was not messed up.
I am thinking that staggering the tile placement is preferable to lining the new tile up with the existing tile. Am I correct ?
I had a look at pricing and it would be comparable to the sheet vinyl.
This would also save me the hassle of having to move all appliances and furniture out of my kitchen. This way i can move everything aside when working in that area.

 

[DarisMulkin]

Why not just peel it all up and start from fresh with a new flat floor?

 

[Magnolya]

Why not just peel it all up and start from fresh with a new flat floor?

The whole point of this thread was because many areas are permanently stuck to the plywood and prying up also delamminates the subfloor. The bottom two layers are also suspect with asbestos.

 

[Magnolya]

I have successfully leveled the area in my kitchen. Now i can start laying the tile. Concrete looks bad in the image but it is 98 % smooth.

 

[Mark Brown]

So that looks 1000% better than i would have assumed to see
Well done

 

[Magnolya]

Thanks Mark, I used a small rasp to take down any small imperfections before it had completely cured. I do have to say I am proud of myself having never worked with floor leveler before

 

[highup]

You're paying attention, cool. Scraping off the trowel ridges with a 6-in spreader/drywall taping knife, or a handheld razor scraper or even a towel held perpendicular to the surface and drug backwards to yourself works too. You learned a lot about doing this while it was still damp and not fully cured. Depending on the leveling compound that you use, you can vacuum that up then mix a slightly thinner mixture and use a concrete finishing trowel or even the smooth side it is vinyl trowel and starting over in one corner, work yourself across the room spreading a thin skim coat over the different layers of filler that you have already applied. I'm talking a very thin skin coat not like an eighth of an inch, but just enough to fill in any small voids and blend any areas that you might have dug into with the rasp or scraper. Not an issue if you're covering it with a laminate floor, but sometimes a must do if you're going to be installing glued down vinyl or anything that adheres to the floor.
Nice work.

 

[Magnolya]

Thank you highup. I am finished laying my tiles and very pleased with the results. Thank you to everyone who gave me advice along the way, i really appreciate it.

 

[highup]

Holy smoke, you work faster than I do. Looks great.