Might as well be DIY

[Ernesto]

Called in to bid click vinyl plank. And to look at the last guys job that's seperating. "A" shaped wood strips that are flat on top nailed through the floor in every doorway and transition to carpet. Finish nails working their way up and sticking out of every transition strip. Ouch! Two condo's in high end seasonal rent area. Both upstairs and the substrate is gypcrete.

Handyman job.

Oh edit... theres a thin cheap blue foam under this and all the furniture is making indentations. Is foam allowed under this stuff?

 

[Ken]

Floor muffler makes an LVT underlayment. Its denser than the one for laminate but Im sure that there will be people using the laminate one instead. Its supposed to ease the flow over imperfections in the subfloor. Works pretty well.

 

[Ernesto]

Floor muffler makes an LVT underlayment. Its denser than the one for laminate but Im sure that there will be people using the laminate one instead. Its supposed to ease the flow over imperfections in the subfloor. Works pretty well.

I heard you say that before but have yet to see any v-plank manufacturer spec it.

 

[rugaddict]

i just got a call to look at a click lvt in a commercial space where the gapping was so severe that in several places it could be measured in inches and remarkablly there was a plank in the center of the floor which had gaps on both ends

 

[Ernesto]

i just got a call to look at a click lvt in a commercial space where the gapping was so severe that in several places it could be measured in inches and remarkablly there was a plank in the center of the floor which had gaps on both ends

Yea I can just kick these back in place.

Goes to show you how sensitive these floors are to flatness spec. Plus, should we resurrect the vinyl plank transitions? Pretty sure the handyman couldn't find any to go with this floor.
The man leaves it up to us to figure it out and use some fugly commercial trims. Just stupid.

 

[Ernesto]

I guess these should work for transitioning to ceramic and carpet, comes unfinished so I can stain them whatever color. Putty the tops of the screws and touchup.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Traffic-Master-6-ft-x-1-7-16-in-x-7-16-in-Oak-Carpet-Trim-18571/100354263

 

[Ernesto]

See #2 - a under CAUTION! Do not install Supreme Click Elite Vinyl Planks over carpet or any foam
or underlayment. doh: rolleyes:

http://www.kingsmillhardwood.com/EliteVinylInstall.pdf

 

[Ken]

Now here is the issue that I have. When the sales rep that I dealt with introduced me to the product he told me to use the lvt floor muffler under it to ease the stress under subfloor imperfections. He has a ton of flooring experience and I have come to take his advice as I would take any of yours. The directions state to only use a certain foam IF you are going to use foam but doesnt say that its needed. I think that DIYers or installers who dont have alot of experience with the product yet will be installing over laminate foam which has alot more play. I just installed the commercial version of the product in a local police department with out foam. They have alot of rolling chairs and I was concerned that it could cause too much movement.

 

[Ernesto]

Now here is the issue that I have. When the sales rep that I dealt with introduced me to the product he told me to use the lvt floor muffler under it to ease the stress under subfloor imperfections. He has a ton of flooring experience and I have come to take his advice as I would take any of yours. The directions state to only use a certain foam IF you are going to use foam but doesnt say that its needed. I think that DIYers or installers who dont have alot of experience with the product yet will be installing over laminate foam which has alot more play. I just installed the commercial version of the product in a local police department with out foam. They have alot of rolling chairs and I was concerned that it could cause too much movement.

Good call.

I have not seen the underlayment of which you speak but it better be pretty thin or somone is going to be eating lots of floors.
The locking mechanism is not near as beefy as a laminate, so it's going to take a lot less movement ie hardly any before it seperates.
Many a manufacturer has eaten floors and changed specs as the wind blows.

Personally my mind says dont do it and I ain't going there.

 

[Ernesto]

Now heres my take on advice from sales reps, take it with a grain of salt, they only want to sell and most have jack in technical knowledge. Most all sales reps have zero install experience and will sell what the boss wants them to sell regardless of the unrealistic logic that goes along with it.

he told me to use the lvt floor muffler under it to ease the stress under subfloor imperfections

I hear this alot about easing subfloor imperfections using an underlayment.

Think about this for a minute. The underlayment eases these imperfections how? By filling the lower "imperfections" in the substrate but at the same time are making the high spots just as high at the same time. You cannot fill low spots with an underlayment and keep the high spots the same as they were before. LOL
Stupid senseless sales tactics. This is what an experienced floor prep installer knows how to do with patch, grinding and SLC that no roll of underlayment can reproduce. Get my drift?

It's been my experience over the last thirty seven years that sales reps and salesmen don't understand floor prep, cannot quote the cost because again they do not understand it and have never done it and are afraid to spec the cost of it again because they do not know it and have not done it and it might loose the sale. Thats why installers always will be asked to eat floor prep. But you know installers, they don't want to eat it so they won't do it thus the cause of many flooring failures.

I hope it catches because it will help my bottom line when everyone thinks that a roll of underlayment can replace skilled floor prep.



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I edited that last post a few times. Better read it again before you post. It's complicated.
It reminds me of the Color Tile manager back in circa "87 who wanted me to replace a Mannigton Gold install that was telegraphing the old vinyl pattern without skimming it, the other guy just went over top of the old with no embossing levelor. Course he used to be a Mannington rep so he knew more than I did or what the installation requirement said.

 

[Nick]

I don't even want to think of how much Mannigton Gold i replaced.

Word around here was it almost took them bankrupt.

 

[Ernesto]

Well Nick, it does have a bad rap. My thoughts on it are first, not many guys could figure out which perimeter adhesives was for porous and non-porous substrates.
Then you had the time frame for installation before it would start to shrink, think planning and seam sealer.
Then again you had the newer specs for embossing leveler which not many guys understood. I never had a call back on mine. Thats either gold, silver of bronze. Damn, I don't believe I even remembered that.

 

[Ken]

It all comes down to floor prep. I wish there was a way to test our materials to see just how far "out of spec" we could push them without the floor failing. I'm much more interested in finding out what a floor "can" do than what it "cant".

 

[rugaddict]

the mills now run it through a large diverse testing facility---its known as *your house*

 

[ws6owner]

What was the moisture reading of the subfloor?

 

[Ernesto]

What was the moisture reading of the subfloor?

Me? Its old gypcrete. Dry as a bone.

 

[FloorMaven]

...I hear this alot about easing subfloor imperfections using an underlayment. Think about this for a minute. The underlayment eases these imperfections how? By filling the lower "imperfections" in the substrate but at the same time are making the high spots just as high at the same time. You cannot fill low spots with an underlayment and keep the high spots the same as they were before. LOL Stupid senseless sales tactics.

Obviously the underlay conforms to the substrate essentially replicating it as you noted...I think it "eases subfloor imperfections" in terms of smoothness, as a few underlays will to some extent absorb coarse irregularities.

 

[Ernesto]

Obviously the underlay conforms to the substrate essentially replicating it as you noted...I think it "eases subfloor imperfections" in terms of smoothness, as a few underlays will to some extent absorb coarse irregularities.

Agreed, somewhat. Still we know who this mumbo jumbo is directed at, don't we.

 

[FloorMaven]

Agreed, somewhat. Still we know who this mumbo jumbo is directed at, don't we.

If there's a proud edge of a wood subfloor the underlayment might absorb it. So, essentially what the man is selling is technically accurate.

 

[Ernesto]

If there's a proud edge of a wood subfloor the underlayment might absorb it. So, essentially what the man is selling is technically accurate.

Here's what I think, directly to the point. The man is overselling as they always do. That statement is a "feel good" statement to make DIY's and slackers feel better about NOT doing proper floor prep.
There's no substitute for proper floor prep.