LVP stair help

[Cowgirl8]

Currently have installer (professional company) putting LVP on stairs between first and second stories to match the rest of the house with a whole-home install before I move in (currently empty). There was carpet previously installed on stairs & second floor. The LVP I got has padded backing on the plank. The company ordered the stair nose to go with the LVP color, I got called on Wednesday indicating a potential “issue” with the stairs, but that the crew would come up with a good plan moving forward - no more details were given.
Fast forward to Friday, stairs were done, but told not to step foot on until Sunday - today went over to check out, the LVP right against the stair nose flexes when stepped on creating a gap between the stair nose and the plank on the stair, roughly about 1/8”. This does not seem right at all. Does anyone have some good advice on if this is indeed how it is supposed to be, or what action I need to take with installer to correct if needed?

 

[Cowgirl8]

Here are a couple photos showing the stairs and bottom landing where they had already trimmed the wooden stair nose to prepare for the LVP stair nose.

 

[Mark Brown]

uh, maybe it is just me but what I am looking at is just a set of wooden stairs and no LVP.

It also looks like a set of stairs that are not flushed out and likely impossible to put LVP on. Help me out here, did you not say the stairs are done.

 

[C.J.]

Sounds like when the LVP tread is stepped on it sinks to follow the contour of the actual wood tread and creates a gap at the back at the riser.

 

[highup]

uh, maybe it is just me but what I am looking at is just a set of wooden stairs and no LVP.

It also looks like a set of stairs that are not flushed out and likely impossible to put LVP on. Help me out here, did you not say the stairs are done.

I'm thinking tear out the lumber and put in double layers of plywood.......
But they might have to sell their car to buy the plywood. I wouldn't want to install any kind of laminate or vinyl plank on steps like that.

 

[Cowgirl8]

The photos I included show the stairs before they laid the plank with stair noses. Sorry, I didn’t get an updated pic of the plank with stair nose, but I included a couple images showing where the step would be & what the stair nose pieces look like. Right where the stair nose is flush with the plank on the step side (not riser), if you step with more weight on the planks than the stair nose, the plank abutting the nose sinks about 1/8”, which I’m almost presuming at this time to be because of the gap between the padded backing & where the click-lock comes into play.

Any ideas on what’s causing it & what I can speak with the install crew about would be appreciated. This does not seem right, and the crew thinks they are going to be finished tomorrow, so I’m hoping to have more pros take a look & provide some advice on how I need to handle this with them.

 

[C.J.]

Did you go to a box store?

Sounds like you’re in a pickle and your installers don’t really know how to do stairs. I’d stop the rest of the stairs from being installed until the current ones are fixed. Problem is that this now brings everything else they’ve done into question. Have you called the shop where you purchased your flooring from? Take some video of the issue? You just may need it for later

Could be as simple as a few nails needed to hold the planks in place until the adhesive sets up. Problem is the planks shouldn’t be moving, usually it’s the stair nose you have to be careful of until the adhesive sets up.

 

[Cowgirl8]

Did you go to a box store?

Sounds like you’re in a pickle and your installers don’t really know how to do stairs. I’d stop the rest of the stairs from being installed until the current ones are fixed. Problem is that this now brings everything else they’ve done into question. Have you called the shop where you purchased your flooring from? Take some video of the issue? You just may need it for later

Could be as simple as a few nails needed to hold the planks in place until the adhesive sets up. Problem is the planks shouldn’t be moving, usually it’s the stair nose you have to be careful of until the adhesive sets up.

Unfortunately, the stairs were all laid on Friday except the bottom landing area. We’re we told to wait until Sunday to walk on (which is fine since place is vacant), but when going over yesterday, the depressions in the plank when stepping on the tread were noticed.
The plank is professional grade (Nuvelle series) with a padded backing. I found the style at two different local flooring stores, and decided to go with company that came very highly recommended and could meet install time. Needless to say, there are issues.

Thanks for the video recommendation - I’ll get that today. And, any other recommendation or how to handle this with the company (owner) would be appreciated.

 

[C.J.]

Good on you for going local. They have some skin in the game.

Your LVP treads should be solidly adhered to the treads. If you have movement then something ain’t right. Maybe the treads are bowed and the LVP didn’t sit flush on the wood tread making solid contact with the adhesive. Maybe the LVP tread is too tight causing it to bulge up so it’s not making contact with your adhesive. Maybe the foam padding on the back of the plank needed to be scraped off before the LVP was installed. There are several reasons why you could have bounce in your LVP treads. At this point you would have to remove a stair to see exactly what and why this is happening.

 

[Cowgirl8]

Good on you for going local. They have some skin in the game.

Your LVP treads should be solidly adhered to the treads. If you have movement then something ain’t right. Maybe the treads are bowed and the LVP didn’t sit flush on the wood tread making solid contact with the adhesive. Maybe the LVP tread is too tight causing it to bulge up so it’s not making contact with your adhesive. Maybe the foam padding on the back of the plank needed to be scraped off before the LVP was installed. There are several reasons why you could have bounce in your LVP treads. At this point you would have to remove a stair to see exactly what and why this is happening.

Thanks for your response, C.J. I messaged the owner this morning about the concerns & he was to go over and look at it today. No call or message, and when I got back in town this evening to do my daily walkthrough, all equipment (minus two boxes of LVP) has been removed from the property, so they appear like their done. I’m anticipating a call tomorrow morning to schedule walkthru and be told there is nothing wrong with the stairs (because that’s just how they are installed).

If this turns out to be the case, I would appreciate info on any recourses I have, or can take, to get this rectified. Additionally, ongoing damage has been done to my property ranging from damaged/holed walls, window blinds broken, cabinet scratches, gouged door frames from top of closet doors (roller hardware) moved, and more. So, I already have some frustration in this going into the third week of being in my place where I’ve been trying to move into (originally quoted as a 5-6 day job). None of the damage has been fixed, and I’ve only been told that he (the owner) will “make it right”. I’ll be posting video I took tonight of the stairs to get an idea of what’s happening. Thanks for all your professional advice - I really need to figure out what I can do at this point in the situation.

 

[Cowgirl8]

Don’t seem to be able to upload the video I took, but here are some stills showing the stair depressions the best I could (much better to see the depression “bounce” from videos, but hoping this gives some reference). Every stair tread has some level of depression/bounce associated with this install.

Again, all equipment has been packed up by install crew seeming to be done, no call from owner to perform a walk thru today after he was to go over and check out the stairs, no reported home damages made along the way have been repaired (and really don’t want them to be fixing any of this given the damage they did at this point, but needs to be rectified), so I have a feeling I’m getting a call tomorrow saying job is done and that’s the way the stairs are meant to be. If this is seriously something that is just supposed to be this way, that my expectations are too high, then can other professionals that would install lvp on stairs chime in please?

At this stage, what, if any needed, further options do I have? Is this something I need to be looking at contacting a lawyer for now? Or, getting recommendations/estimates from another floor store? I paid deposit of half cost up front, still have half yet to pay for work completed (>$5,000). I just don’t see this going well with current installers and really appreciate professional advice on best ways forward.

 

[Mark Brown]

OK, so lets keep this short and sweet. There is nothing acceptable about stairs that move. They will fail and in my mind simply by moving are already failing. Your stairs from the original pictures you sent were in rough shape, probably not level and true and what have you but this is nothing that should not have been remedied before your new stairs went on. Simply stated, you got hosed.
Timber framed stairs suck, I know they suck, C.J. knows they suck, Highup knows they suck and now you too know they suck. You cannot simply slap vinyl plank on them and call it good. They are warped, depressed, crowned, uneven, skewed and another million or so adjectives that will fit. The ultra rigid nosing with probably oodles of urethane construction adhesive underneath it will remain very stable however your thinner, likely padding attached vinyl plank... well that is going to flex all over the place and without watching the video I know that it does.

This is wrong. Full Stop. End of discussion.

I would like to add, I appreciate that you did not bring up any of the damage they did while you were searching for answers in your stair dilemma, it speaks volumes to you in regards to wanting to know our honest opinion without influencing our stance on your installers. Well played.
P.S. They are fools.

 

[Cowgirl8]

OK, so lets keep this short and sweet. There is nothing acceptable about stairs that move. They will fail and in my mind simply by moving are already failing. Your stairs from the original pictures you sent were in rough shape, probably not level and true and what have you but this is nothing that should not have been remedied before your new stairs went on. Simply stated, you got hosed.
Timber framed stairs suck, I know they suck, C.J. knows they suck, Highup knows they suck and now you too know they suck. You cannot simply slap vinyl plank on them and call it good. They are warped, depressed, crowned, uneven, skewed and another million or so adjectives that will fit. The ultra rigid nosing with probably oodles of urethane construction adhesive underneath it will remain very stable however your thinner, likely padding attached vinyl plank... well that is going to flex all over the place and without watching the video I know that it does.

This is wrong. Full Stop. End of discussion.

I would like to add, I appreciate that you did not bring up any of the damage they did while you were searching for answers in your stair dilemma, it speaks volumes to you in regards to wanting to know our honest opinion without influencing our stance on your installers. Well played.
P.S. They are fools.

Thank you, Mark. With this said, what do you see my recourse being? Do I refuse final payment until repairs are made (both stairs and other damages incurred)? Do I get other reputable flooring companies to evaluate the workmanship, provide estimate for redo & bill back to original company? Do I need to take action with an attorney?

I have spent an entire military career (newly retired) working with thousands of contractors/subs - I absolutely despise the feeling of being taken advantage of. This company came so highly recommended by many, many people (word of mouth and online), and I felt great about supporting a locally-owned small business in a community I’ve been visiting almost annually since I was a child. Additionally, when my integrity is questioned, that is a real low point - not knowing how damages were done & trying to play off as it was pre-existing - not good with someone who prides herself on character & integrity, especially as my career required.

Again, thanks all for helping me with this dilemma. I just want to try and make the best, most reasonable moves looking forward & hope to get some advice.

 

[Mark Brown]

The best, proper thing to do is withhold payment, ask for your concerns to be remedied and proceed from there. You can only pull the trigger once and you had best mean to kill when you do.... we aren't there yet.
People have a bad day, stores try new crews, bad things happen to good people....
Your retailer deserves the first right of refusal so play that and see where you get. If you get nowhere, then you will require a second opinion, unfortunately yours is rather useless as it is not "professional" even though it has merit. Then you can present those findings to your retailer and demand restitution.... from there it gets all legal and such.
Let's just hope they make you good

 

[C.J.]

Sounds like Mark covered all the bases. Withhold any final monies owed until you are satisfied. If the stairs weren’t up to par for installing LVP on then it’s the installers responsibility to say something and make the appropriate corrections before going ahead with the installation. Give the shop their rightful opportunity to fix the situation. If that doesn’t work then you can proceed to the next step.

 

[Cowgirl8]

Thanks gents. Update to the stair saga…owner of the company admitted the stair tread should not flex, he said because of the stair nose used, the crew had to double up the plank for the tread - no packing of the gap areas & padding left on (found tonight). His son is to be personally removing the stair noses for a different version, but leaving the tread doubled with plank?! When seeing it tonight, does not look good. Some pieces of doubled up plank not full pieces (shims only), and the white Formica they used for the risers have about four separate chips/cracks in them from pulling off the stair noses. This is week three of the original 5-6 day quoted job. I’m completely behind schedule just trying to get moved in, and the issues with the stairs appear to be worsening.

I’ll be messaging the owner again in the morning with the findings to wait a response. Other thoughts?

 

[Mark Brown]

Oh Hell no!
You can't shim vinyl plank.... with vinyl plank! These guys are hacks at best and words I cannot say out loud at worst.
I'm sorry they didn't want to prep your stairs and do the actual work involved to get the job done but this is NOT acceptable. Just so you know those were the appropriate stair nosings, the install is what was improper.
That all needs to be removed, the stairs repaired flat... FLAT! and then a single layer of plank relaid, nosings installed and if thst formica is chipped and visable below the nosing line it needs to come off and be replaced as well.
This is disgusting and frankly unbelievable.

....now I'm mad!

 

[Mark Brown]

One more.... MAYBE, just MAYBE...they are the wrong nosings and the doubled the plank to get the height, but that sounds like pure insanity to me.

No GD wonder your stairs flexed away from the nosing

Merciful crap

 

[C.J.]

Those are lap over nosings for cryin out loud. Or they coulda been flushed out if one really wanted to get creative but certainly not like they did. And people say vinyl plank takes no skill to lay. Pfftttt.

And what’s up with that brilliant white caulk? I don’t even use that stuff at tubs anymore.

 

[Cowgirl8]

So now we see what we’re working with, how do I tell the “professionals” they are wrong, it all needs to be removed and laid flat with zero flex/movement? Do I just let them try & put on another stair nose & it doesn’t flex with the gaps in there?!

Again, this is end of week 3 of a 5-6 day install job…I want the job done (correctly), them out of my place, and need to get moved in.