Laminate Flooring Depressions

[cabayarea]

I had this Mannington Laminate flooring installed by a contractor and after installation I've found many areas in which there are depressions. The original flooring was planned for carpet, but I upgraded to laminate flooring.

The contractors have come and taken a look at the flooring and they are in the process of evaluations, but I want to make sure I do my own homework before they come back and confuse me in technical terms so that they won't end up fixing the whole thing.

My personal take is that I want them to:
- lift up the entire floor because i want to see what's under it. I just don't trust them right now.
- re-do the subflooring ('cause right now I have no idea what they've done) so that the depression is no more than 1/8 of an inch, as allowed by Mannington.
- re-do the entire floor, using new material, because I am afraid that once they take some of these apart, the parts will not snap back as strong as it did before.

Any thoughts? What I'd like to know is what they should have done to the subflooring. I am also trying to find a third-party that can come with me when they lift the floor up. I've also asked the Mannington folks to come out, but that won't be until after the new year.

Thank you.

 

[FloorMaven]

According to the installation instructions at the link you posted-

Subfloor variations should not exceed 1/8" in 6' (3.18 mm in 1.8 m). Use a 6' level or straightedge to check for variation. All high spots must be sanded or ground smooth. Fill in low spots, cracks, and depressions with Mannington MVP 2023 or equivalent.

Get yourself a six foot level, set it on your floor and mark the areas with blue tape that you believe to be outside the manufacturer's tolerance for flatness. Take into consideration that the floor will hide some of the subfloor defect in that it is simply too stiff to conform to certain undulations. You can weight the area (have someone stand in the depression) while you measure it.

Expect resistance by the installation people to your desire to have the floor removed.

 

[FloorMaven]

What part of the country are you in? Perhaps you can have the floor professionally inspected and documented so you don't have to deal with the contractor's gibberish.

 

[cabayarea]

Thanks so much for your reply!

I am in San Jose, California (northern california). Yes, I wanted to find a professional to come and take a look. I did call some of the contractors but they said I should start with the board. Any thoughts on this one?

I think the subcontractor will come back sometime after the new year to give me the results of their investigation, but I can tell you that the exact same flooring in the model itself (this is a new construction) is VERY solid.

Thank you again for your help!

 

[FloorMaven]

Here's a link to an inspector in your area-

http://www.farrisfloorinspections.com/

I don't know him but your problem doesn't appear to be a huge mystery and using someone close will probably avoid travel costs.

Talk to him about how you might go about leveraging reimbursement of his fee from your installation contractor. Once you're armed with your documented proof and you're not getting anywhere with your contractor you might contact the board as one of your last resorts. Contacting the board will immediately turn the relationship adversarial and even though your floor needs to be right the law provides your contractor first dibs on fixing it and an irate individual is probably not someone you can expect to receive excellence.

 

[FloorMaven]

..but I can tell you that the exact same flooring in the model itself (this is a new construction) is VERY solid.

Keep in mind that a ploy of someone who doesn't want to go through the trouble of making it right will attempt to have you think you're crazy.

 

[cabayarea]

Thanks so much!

I actually did find that inspector last night and sent him an email, so I'll see when he responds. But thank you for the tip on getting reimbursement! This is great. Well, the manufacturer is supposed to come out after the new year as well, so I will see what he says.

I also appreciate the note about going to the board. Yes, I agree that if they do get first dibs they won't do it well. The thing is they really rushed to get the home done so that the home can close at the end of their fiscal year, and as a result there were things that were overlooked. It's that simple.

Thank you and happy new year!

 

[FloorMaven]

Well, the manufacturer is supposed to come out after the new year as well, so I will see what he says.

Don't inconvenience yourself when it comes to meeting the manufacturer's rep. They almost always avoid critiquing the installation and their customer (the builder), who buys truck loads of their product. The most you'll get from the rep is an assurance that there is nothing wrong with his product.

 

[cabayarea]

Thank you! The builder has asked the manufacturer rep to come out already, so I will keep that in mind. So the players are:

- the builder: who i am dealing with mainly.
- the subcontractor: who installed the floors.
- the manufacturer: who will come out soon.

I did tell the builder that I was going to plan to get a third party there when they lift the floors up because I need an independent party there to see what's going on. I also told him that my friend's husband is a contractor himself - and I am going to see if he can refer someone that can come out as well. But definitely the flooring inspector is a good thing.

 

[Ernesto]

- re-do the entire floor, using new material, because I am afraid that once they take some of these apart, the parts will not snap back as strong as it did before.

I'd say thats going a bit to far. The typical industry limit for re-installing planks is 3 times. But yes, the planks can sustain damage if not digiligently unclicked so it is wise to have extra around. And out here in AZ which is very similar in that the board allows the contractor to fix the floor at least once before you can seek relief from them, and any sort of legal suit, that does not mean replace it unless it is found to be damaged, improperly installed or has some sort of manufacturing issue.

You should also have some left overs out in the house so the inspector can check them for any issues like excessive bowing without being installed. Often times I see some planks that are very bowed and can lead to flexing of the floor even if it happens to be within industry standards. You should allow some time for the floor to relax before getting to bunched up.

 

[cabayarea]

Thanks Ernesto -
I understand what you mean here, but here's the problem. You shouldn't be stepping on the floor feeling like there is a gaping hole under it. In addition, if I am stepping on it, someone across from me could see ripples that are way beyond the 1/8 of an inch that is allowed.

Do you have a hunch as to what the problem might be? What I don't want is to have the furniture moved in and have more weight on these floors and then suddenly the floor cracks and then I will have to deal with having the furniture moved out and then possible damage to the furniture - who's going to be responsible for that? That's a different set of issues that I don't want to deal with.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Ernesto]

Do you have a hunch as to what the problem might be?

I got a long list.

I do inspections for many laminate manufacturers. First thing I do like I said is check the left overs that have not been installed. Many times though the installers or retail store intentionally remove any left overs, or the builder does not want clutter. This is not a good thing and could possibly cost them dearly if the inspector cannot make an informed decision having un-installed product around to see if there are issues with it.

Second thing which is a common problem is installation without acclimation in a home that is not within the proper temp range, rh has a little to do with it as well.

 

[cabayarea]

Thanks. I do have some leftover ones. But the issue is still the depression. What's causing it? The one in the model is so solid - why would mine be so flimsy? I was told by some folks that the subflooring may be a huge issue if the prep work was not done right. The original flooring planned for the space was carpeting, and they probably didn't do the prep work for laminate. It's still just speculation until we lift the floors.

 

[Ernesto]

Thanks. I do have some leftover ones. But the issue is still the depression. What's causing it? The one in the model is so solid - why would mine be so flimsy? I was told by some folks that the subflooring may be a huge issue if the prep work was not done right. The original flooring planned for the space was carpeting, and they probably didn't do the prep work for laminate. It's still just speculation until we lift the floors.

Well of course that is possible. If you weight the floor it has to be done in a larger span, like twice the size of the standard because the floor may lift just outside the standard length giving you a false measurement. The only real way to find out is to remove it after dismissing the other issues I explained earlier.

 

[cabayarea]

Thank you. When I have the inspector in I will ask them to inspect the leftovers as well just to make sure there are no product issues, then we can go into lifting the floor. I appreciate your help!

 

[FloorMaven]

...then we can go into lifting the floor.

You want to avoid removing any floor yourself or by someone you hire. This would be a very last resort and only if the builder/contractor doesn't abide by a state issued corrective work order.

I did tell the builder that I was going to plan to get a third party there when they lift the floors up...

Normally you won't see any work get done (floors being lifted) at this initial meeting of the minds; otherwise known as the blame game or finger pointing contest. This is pretty much just a meeting of the suits.

I will guess and what all too often happens in the case of new home construction is that the builder takes on the responsibility of flattening the floor simply because it's cheaper to have his in house people do it than to sub it out to the flooring contractor. Somewhere lost in the end of year fiscal and holiday commotion and possibly your change order to hard surface the builder's superintendent drops the ball when inspecting the subfloor flatness.

The installers come in as scheduled see that the subfloor isn't right and either make the decision themselves or their boss makes it for them to either call the builder for an AWA or blindly except the subfloor as ready as is the builder's responsibility before they arrive. If a call is put into the builder they usually say, "go home, we'll call to reschedule when its ready".

This is where it gets dicey. Your floor gets laid over an out of tolerance subfloor, why? Could be any number of reasons why the installer (who is ultimately responsible for accepting the condition of the subfloor) decides to proceed without taking corrective measures. It usually comes down to money. Oft times they feel they won't be adequately compensated for the prep work and the time it takes will mess up their schedule. If by chance the homeowner doesn't notice- they're golden, if the H/O notices they will attempt to hang the blame on the builder who was supposed to, but didn't have the house ready. If successful, the contractor after getting paid to install can now get paid to take it out, fix the subfloor and reinstall. It's somewhat of a windfall.

In the meanwhile- the builder, contractor and installer will go 'round and 'round with their dysfunctional love/hate relationship and how they split up the consumer's dollar. During the whole time you'll be left sitting on your thumbs.

What I usually suggest to the consumer is to be aggressive, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Demand they make it right, demand they make it right now. The longer you let it go the longer they will drag it out.

 

[cabayarea]

Thank you.

I won't lift the floor myself, that's for sure. I want the subcontractor to do it himself and have my third party there at the same time. I think that's the safest way to do it.

But thank you for that clarification on who's supposed to prepare the subfloor. That's been a question of mine as to who was supposed to do it - but you are right in that the subcontractor did "accept" the subfloor by taking action on it. one of the guys at a home improvement store said, "well, the subcontractors get paid in advance for these things, and whenever they can, they will cut corners to see if they can make more money." He's totally right.

I do plan to be the squeaky wheel, definitely. I haven't even moved in - and there is no way I am going to accept this substandard work.

 

[FloorMaven]

...one of the guys at a home improvement store said, "well, the subcontractors get paid in advance for these things, and whenever they can, they will cut corners to see if they can make more money." He's totally right.

Advance payment is highly unlikely, especially from a big box. The mindset of the sub usually isn't to steal but to avoid getting ripped-off. Not being adequately compensated for labor he hasn't had a prior agreement in writing to perform. Oft times after the additional work is complete the sub will find the contractor saying, "you want x but the builder is offering x-y so we will pay you x-y-z." Unfortunately the sub often finds himself put in a position to take risks.

 

[cabayarea]

Gotcha. That's something I will need to consider before assigning blame. So I will need to understand their situation as well.

I had thought the builder was stuck in between (but it's still his job to QA the thing before final delivery), but the sub and myself now seem to be stuck...

 

[FloorMaven]

Their politics are just that- their politics. It doesn't matter who is to blame just that you know it's not you. They can work that out amongst themselves, in the meantime you want your floor right.