Large floor plan - suggested starting point / layout?

[C.J.]

See, we’re getting somewhere now. But I still think that crap is overhyped for the sake of boosting the sale even if there is some actual technical merit to it. How much? That is the $20 question. I’ll await your test results since there ain’t no sunshine or cacti to drink beer under up there.

I suppose I’m the end it’s all in the eye, or the ear, of the beholder and if one feels good about it then to them it was worth it.

 

[bitbanger]

Mark (first off fair enough, I wouldn't ask someone to put their name on the line for something they don't have experience with). Considering I've already opened a roll (so it's not returnable) I'd be willing to send you a slice if you'd like. Just throwing it out there... no obligation, I'm likely using the rest one way or the other.

C.J I think the takeaway here is that I'm just the sucker consumer who bought into YouTube University and the LL + QuietWalk marketing (combined with seemingly overwhelming favorable reviews). My floor is nice and flat, or will at least be after the floor patch at the seams. It's as smooth as APA rated sheeting OSB can be (smooth side up). However there are of course the 7/16-16ga staples that didn't all drive 100% below the surface (and being divergent point they don't exactly pound down), and I bought into the notion that the padding included on the RVP was just a joke, and that anyone who wanted a serious underlayment for sound deadening and perfecting slightly imperfect surfaces needed to add one.

Weather this will help or not I guess I won't be able to know, but I do know I'd be kicking myself after install wondering just how much it could have helped. Just hope she isn't kicking me because we took the risk and we end up with buckling down the road. As an installer I can understand not wanting to add this extra risk.

 

[Mark Brown]

I just glued my entire hardwood flooring installation, minus a small section in my kids room that is not attached to the rest of the home on a continuous plane. This process when complete will cost me more than the wood itself, seeing as I got that at a reduced cost because well... i know a guy Over and over again I have said to myself, is it really worth it. The cost is north of 1000 dollars to install 900 sqft of wood, to this day I still cannot answer that question. What question I can answer is that I know if I did not do it, I would hate myself for knowing that I did not do everything I could to give myself the best possible floor I could and sometimes, self assurances are worth more than money. How is that for being objective

Wanna know something really mind blowing, and i bring this up a lot everywhere i ever go but seeing as you are new here one more time won't hurt. Want to know how much of a joke the "minor subfloor imperfections" dog and pony show is? There is only one flooring pad I have ever seen put their money where their mouth is on that claim and it is Arbiton Fast lay, which for a reference is a product I use often and have complete faith in. Their tolerance for what the pad will absorb in regards to minor subfloor imperfections is >0.2mm and to put that to inches for Americans, Liberians and anyone from Myanmar translates to 0.0078 in. and for what it is worth, that is about as much as I would assume that they would do.

 

[C.J.]

Your floor won’t instantly buckle under normal everyday use. Like @Tile Tom I’ve had a floor fail because of an additional layer of underlayment but that was a unique situation. The customer was maybe 400 pounds and used a walker. The excessive rolling load cause the butt joints to open up and gap. Also, like Tom, we were able to uninstall the floor, remove the underlayment and reinstall with some Titebond in the butt joints. I’m prolly just a little skeptical because I’ve seen additional underlayment sold so many times and it usually is for no other reason than the salesperson is trying to make as big of a sale as possible.

I wouldn’t worry about your fridge or stove either since they usually get put in place and stay there until who knows when down the road.

I’ll give this one to Mark but I’ve still got a lump of coal for him. Or is it a moon rock…

 

[Mark Brown]

I suppose I’m the end it’s all in the eye, or the ear, of the beholder and if one feels good about it then to them it was worth it.

This is the truth. I find the timber of a pad over installation to be more pleasing personally than I do with a pad attached direct flooring install. I cannot say that makes anything worth it, but for my own installation I would include a pad with any floating floor that I chose to install. I have yet to find a product that can mirror the sound density (i think i don't think that is correctly what I mean) and there is something about the acoustics that I prefer. I might also be making it all up in my head. Then again, I put butyl rubber on my stainless steel kitchen sink to lower the vibration on that thing because it sounded too tinny. There is close to 80 lbs of foil backed butyl rubber installed in my car because it lowered the noise from the wheel wells and the door cavities. Normal people would think I am crazy and frankly I would agree with them but to me it was worth it.

 

[C.J.]

Call me funny but I’ve seen so many people buy a fake plastic floor then try their hardest to make it not be a fake plastic floor. If you want actual hardwood then pony up the chedda. Otherwise you’re gonna have to accept some concessions whether it be sound, transition strips, repeating patterns on the planks or who knows what, but there will be something. I’ll do what I can to help the process out but in the end it is what it is.

 

[bitbanger]

Well I won't go down the road of personal weights here but I do recognize there are situations such as rolling loads that can exaggerate a non-ideal install situation. Side note I installed laminate in my last home about ten years ago and was amazed how much the industry had shifted away from it when I started researching recently. Ultimately I bought into the added benefits of vinyl, but just goes to show how much even someone who's put flooring down in the past has had to self-educate extensively to even get to where I am here and now (and still tripped up on the underlayment). God help the person who walks into the store and hasn't done some basic research and is purely at the mercy of sales persons.

Anyway I'm still curious to hear about mitigating potential issues in areas not directly off the main sight line as shown in my first post. The only way I can think to check is to laser or snap the main line, snap a perpendicular line from kitchen into the foyer, then snap another perpendicular into say the office (shown below). For reference, this house was built by the local VoTech school carpentry/electrical/plumbing/etc shops - in fact every other house on the street is a different graduating year. I think it's cool, but needless to say there are some, err, irregularities.

Say I do this and find, hey the office top/bottom walls are out of parallel with that ref line some non-insignificant measure over that 12' span? Or worse, I'm out of parallel with the entry door wall? Is my next move skewing my first course, to "spread" the error across the rooms? Or some combination of transitions to hide? I imagine a floor that's not nearly perfectly "in line" on both sides of a transition would be noticeable..

 

[C.J.]

Take a string line that’s nailed at each end and shoot it down the main shot then compare the line with various places throughout your house. You can adjust the line as much as you want until you feel comfortable with how it’s placed. Once you have the line where you are comfortable with it then you can snap a chalk line.

I would rather have an exterior wall that tapers off a little than a crooked main shot. Once you get all your base up and furniture back in a lot of the little things you may notice will fade away but a crooked main shot is forever.

 

[Mark Brown]

Here is a real industry secret that no one wants to tell you. There is shit that wont be straight. There, the cat is out of the bag.
You have the entire right way of it though. Snap your master line, then go off and project it where you can. I like that you can get that whole front entry/tv wall. If those two are parallel even within an inch I would run with it and call it a go, obviously with you longest run being the area of the most concern. If you plan correctly, most people will not pick up even an inch evenly distributed over a 7 inch board span that runs 15 feet or so. Skewing your starting row out to make another wall better is always an option, however I just pick the thing that is the longest and that I see the most. That Dinette/living room run is long and throwing that out enough to make a real world difference on that back wall would probably be ugly. Best thing you can do is weight your layout so that anything that is crooked is as close to a full board as possibly.

Anecdote time!!
As I mentioned previously, I am in the process of reworking my home which includes all new hardwood. I just did the kitchen portion which was all new cabinets and an island. The two walls in my home that are exterior and parallel with my hardwood are one and three quarter inches out of square with one another. I had a decision to make. The wall without cabinets is unbroken and includes a set of French Doors so there is no possibility that there will ever be furniture on it to hide it. The kitchen, although a narrow space that we walk in all the time was broken by an island, so that only 4 feet either side was visible. I entirely threw that side out and placed a full board running into the cut where my toe kicks are. The living room then will have the sight wall that is straight. I made the right choice for while if I stare at it, I can tell my kitchen is wonky, I do not notice it in my day to day. I should add the space is all of 15' wide and still out 1.75 inches.

 

[C.J.]

Alright, just got off the phone with U.S. Floors technical services regarding using an additional layer of underlayment. The word is, at least for the majority of their products (97?), is that an undelayment up to 3 mm thick is allowed but NOT recommended. Additionally, and they use a third party for their testing (Sound Advisor), there is no measurable acoustical benefit from using an additional layer of underlayment. There are measurable benefits for moisture but none for acoustics. As far as an additional layer of underlayment being used as an uncoupling membrane, again, it’s a floating floor, how much more uncoupled can you get.

I suspect this information applies to just about all floating floors and with that I’m back to winning the ‘discussion’.

 

[Mark Brown]

One data point does not win a war sir. One would have to have their testing methodology, results, material used.

At the least you can score a point for attrition. You cannot overrule science so one would need to see said science. Sound transmission is highly understood.

 

[Mark Brown]

Aaaaaand... since we are on again.

UsFloors, Shaw as it were are the sole manufacturer of COREtec floors. Do you not think they would design a test that would demonstrate that their product with pad attached, be it synthetic or cork, is equal to any additional product in an attempt to sway opinion that it really is the best option? Come on now Chris, since when aren't you skeptical ?

 

[C.J.]

I’m skeptical of everything. My one data point is just as valid as your one data point. Gimmie a few and I’ll have more just as soon as I find out how many data points I need to win.

I have no actual side by side experience of comparing one floor with additional pad vs another without but I have seen many a customer bullshited. Man, this is gettin good.

 

[Tile Tom]

I’m all for learning something new so I’ll wait for @Mark Brown to bust a move on the science behind his thoughts. Until then my experience is that a second layer of pad is not much more than additional money in the sale.

I'm too lazy to do the research myself. Ill wait to see what you boy's come up with and use it In my daily grind. Lol

 

[C.J.]

I trust and respect Mark’s opinion but I’m still skeptical. I’m skeptical of everything. I just don’t see how a 1.4 mm layer of something underneath a floating floor will drop anything by 20 db. I’ll buy the additional layer acts as an uncoupling membrane but still, 20 db?? Anyway, I know Mark will be pent up in his igloo for a few months so I am awaiting, in the shade of my cactus with a beer, for some of his scientific testing as well.

 

[highup]

I haven't read through all of the posts yet. If I wanted a second layer of cushions I would call you manufactures tech line and ask them if it's okay for additional underlayment and if so which one.
Without an okay from the manufacturer no in hell I'd risk the possibility of failure. It won't fail tomorrow and it won't fail in a week. Anything that allows the tiniest bit of joint movement it just sounds crazy to me.
Call the manufacturer of the product and ask them if it's okay.

 

[bitbanger]

Well folks as they say proof is in the pudding. I cut a strip of the underlayment and put it beneath a plank, beside a plank without. I'm pushing 300+ lbs and it was immediately obvious how much more give the floor had with the underlayment. She weighs about 1/2 of me and it still moved about quite a bit. By no means a scientific experiment - this is only one plank, it's not fully supported by the underlayment, it doesn't have the entire weight of the floor to compress the underlayment... but I have messed extensively with this floor's locking system to see how much of an 'angle' it takes to pull planks apart, and it's not much! We both decided it was not worth the risk and returned 2-of-the-3 rolls this evening. I'll try to sell the 3rd roll or just take a hit on it. Vid isn't the best quality but I tried to capture it:

 

[bitbanger]

Follow-up question - if I were to scab my first course down, either with scrap or some 1x, and build out, all good. But how does one go about laying the floor 'backwards' from there? I'd be looking at a good 12' worth of rows, and ~500sq ft to lay backwards.

 

[Tile Tom]

Good call!
I was fully prepared to give an ear full when this project inevitably failed due to that idea. Glad you did that test and realized what a bad decision it was.
The amount of on the job experience in this forum easily goes into centuries. Like 2-300 years of combined experience!

 

[Mark Brown]

Follow-up question - if I were to scab my first course down, either with scrap or some 1x, and build out, all good. But how does one go about laying the floor 'backwards' from there? I'd be looking at a good 12' worth of rows, and ~500sq ft to lay backwards.

Back filling is the same, just backwards and slightly more of a pain in the bum.

Your test is flawed however, you do not want a strip of pad. You need to lay out the roll, put a piece or two on there and then go for it. I like that you tested it, however I would say it is an inaccurate representation of what would be the end product.