Net fitting Marmo

[highup]

Never seen but one size paper here. It's either 3 feet wide or 36 inches wide.... our only choices.
I don't use "pattern" paper. Costs a million$ per roll, and besides, I haven't played a single piece of vinyl in over a year...... So this job was my reintroduction to sheet goods after a12 to 16 month hiatus.
Someone else was going to do it but chickened out. Me, just dumb enough to accept the job cause nobody else would.

 

[highup]

Those straight edges will follow 4 inch tiles as they bend or maybe the same as I do around round showers if the tiles are really out of line, do get a lot of 6 inch tiles here
That paper is 120 gsm
Told you threw the dividers away years ago
and

Yes I do take the paper up the side of round showers etc then crease the paper with a ball point pen

Crease the paper well enough to use it for a cut line?

 

[Jon]

Jon, nothing I do f has speed written on it. If it saved me a half hour on this job, that doesn't bother me.
I always use a square for flat walls. I used one for repairing the subfloor and installing the underlayment. I was taught both methods and the dividersalr a continuous line, not stop, start like a short straightedge. I have never seen the thin ones you use.

Its nothing to do with speed
Everybody uses those straight edges over builders squares not just me
Its about keeping it simple which means less to go wrong
One year at Vegas a guy was teaching people to lay underlayment for bathrooms etc. I put one of rubbish bins on the floor and asked him how do you measure where its going to need to be cut Looked at me stupid so I grabbed a hunk of their paperwhich went on the walls and a knife asked him to put down a couple of marks where he wanted the under layment edges of one sheet were to start and finish Lined up the marks, took his paper up the side of the bin a little drew around with ball point creasing the paper. Lots of people standing around by now watching this dumb person from NZ
Took the pattern out and placed on his underlayment lined up with the edges then everybody clapped
It all fell into place from what I was doing, No tape measures and 50 measurements simple and fits first time

 

[Jon]

Never seen but one size paper here. It's either 3 feet wide or 36 inches wide.... our only choices.
I don't use "pattern" paper. Costs a million$ per roll, and besides, I haven't played a single piece of vinyl in over a year...... So this job was my reintroduction to sheet goods after a12 to 16 month hiatus.
Someone else was going to do it but chickened out. Me, just dumb enough to accept the job cause nobody else would.

• $145.34 + GST

In Stock
Which converts to about to about US$75 of which will last me about 2 to 3 months 6 foot rolls to heavy to get in and out I use about 4 foot rolls then split to get more mileage out of a roll
Thought you had plenty of trees around you?

Kraft Paper 1200mm​

• 1200mm x 120gsm x 165m
• Purpose: Heavy weight
• Ideal for pattern making
• Colour: Brown

 

[highup]

Nobody around here has ever seen one of those little straight edge as you're talking about. Just trust me on that. It's also difficult not knowing the texture of your paper, how it behaves compared to what I use. In theory could you not just let the paper run up the wall around the entire perimeter of the room, crease the entire perimeter of the room with your ballpoint pen and just forget the straight edge?
That's where I'm a little confused.
I'd also like to know what kind of ballpoint pen you use. All the ones that I've used don't take long before you get little globs of ink in places you don't want them.

 

[Jon]

I think Roberts make those straight edges definitely not made in NZ
Re paper thickness maybe 6 thickness of news paper, I know one guy who uses real thin paper but the dampness in the air makes it stretch, thicker to me is too stiff and a lot harder to get into tight corners I will stick with 120 gsm but all paper will shrink in the sun if left too long
You never want to run the paper up the walls, unless you need for a round shower etc as when you place on your material it could get longer re the reason you leave a half inch gap or so is so the paper lays flat at all times. Try this for your conversion
https://www.neenahpaper.com/resources/calculators/weight-conversionsNever use a ball point pen on vinyl as it could stain, been there done that. Just use the common old ball point pen even though those straight edges wear the ball off after a long time. I have a red, blue and green colours so you can get real good mileage out of one piece of paper if I want to be real tight

 

[highup]

I've used this felt paper when I can find an undisorted roll without damaged ends. It's the paper with the thin layer of asphalt sandwiched between two other papers. They sometimes call it 30 30 30. Aquabar is a more familiar name. It's used sometimes as an underlay for hardwood floors. It's pretty stable for patterning.
I unroll the lengths needed, the reverse roll them to stabilize the and get rid of roll curl. Afterwards I roll them in a large loop and set them aside while I prep.
For as little vinyl as I do, it works great.
I like the different colored pen idea.

 

[Jon]

Took a photo even though it just about killed me going down stairs
I have found that Sellotape sticks to these new vinyls better than some masking tapes
All you need now is a ballpoint pen and a knife
Do not like the sounds of the "paper" you use. Too much like hard work. Cant be cheap. As I keep saying Keep it simple which means less to go wrong

 

[highup]

Are you set in your ways, or is it me?
This paper is stable an ridgid so it rolls out pretty flat. 3' by 165 feet for $19 to $21
https://www.tools4flooring.com/fortifiber-aquabar-b-underlayment-36-x-167-roll-500-sf.htmlIt's .007" thick, yours is .0078" thick. I use what works and I think you to too. If I was younger and installed more than one vinyl job per year, I'd try other methods. I use one of 3 squares to mark my patterns with and sometimes I us my 4 foot straightedge. We remove and reinstall base here. That's never going to change. Usually the tub is the only thing that needs to be fit tight. I mark my patterns with a square, then cut the walls slightly short to ease the process of folding the material back to spread adhesive and laying the piece into the adhesive.

 

[Jon]

Are you set in your ways, or is it me?
This paper is stable an ridgid so it rolls out pretty flat. 3' by 165 feet for $19 to $21
https://www.tools4flooring.com/fortifiber-aquabar-b-underlayment-36-x-167-roll-500-sf.htmlIt's .007" thick, yours is .0078" thick. I use what works and I think you to too. If I was younger and installed more than one vinyl job per year, I'd try other methods. I use one of 3 squares to mark my patterns with and sometimes I us my 4 foot straightedge. We remove and reinstall base here. That's never going to change. Usually the tub is the only thing that needs to be fit tight. I mark my patterns with a square, then cut the walls slightly short to ease the process of folding the material back to spread adhesive and laying the piece into the adhesive.

I have changed my ways if you read back to the beginning as different products come onto the market, eg rag type paper to brown paper; threw out dividers etc etc
Working with different layers I watch what and how they do things then I try honestly to see if it works for me
I keep on saying keep it simple with the least number of tools one needs why lug tools in and out when there is no need for them, 3 squares?????????? My one straight edge will do the same

 

[highup]

Usually two. 24" one in the truck and a 6" one always in the tool bag.
Tools I use are tape measure, tape, paper, dividers, square and pen.
You do know that I'm not going to change my pattern making methods, right? I'm probably not going to see 3 or 4 more vinyl jobs in my lifetime. People are buying Coretec not sheet goods. The carpet One store hasn't had a vinyl display rack in the showroom for at least 6 or 8 years...... nobody buys it anymore. Coretec and ceramic is what people are buying.

 

[Jon]

What about that Marmo job with the upstands of which will have to go on first with the floor Marmo having to be cut in neat?
Try using your paper for doing harder sheets of underlayment but I would think your paper is too stiff to run along the underlayment sheets with your finger nails to find the edges, have to try and cut neatly I try to do several sheets at the same time
Had a floor prep guy here a few years ago laying underlayment for us to lay vinyl on, I was asked to check how he was going as I was going past he was using a tape measure and straight edge having a hell of a job as when he tried to get the sheets being not straight or square walls in wrecking everything. He was on wages so I suggest he get the company buy a roll of paper. He said I have been doing this for 40 years so I said up you and left it to him. Floor Prep Company had to replace half of it, broken sheets from trying to force them, paint taken off the walls etc etc The more it went wrong the grumpier he got which in turn made things worse again
When I started a hundred years ago the Flooring Companies/Shops used to get Floor Prep Companies to do all the floor prep, uplifting, sanding etc and we used to go out and just lay then the Floor Prep Companies were getting rougher and rougher leaving the layers to fix it for free so the layers got together and started doing the floor prep themselves so that they ere getting the standard they were needing and getting paid for it
Been in this game too long Heard it all

 

[highup]

Not sure what you're talking about with the fingernail thing.
I patterned the underlayment using a square in a similar fashion that you do.
To make less seems in the field of the room I will pattern out a piece of underlayment that will not fit into the room. Then I use a jigsaw with a very thin blade to cut out the part that makes it so my sheet won't fit. Then I drop the big piece in and I put the little piece back in right where it came from.
This scenario can happen for a faucet sticks out from behind the wall, by the toilet. I will fit the sheet of underlayment and then when I'm done cutting it out I cut a square or a u-shape out of the underlayment underneath where the faucet will lay. The big piece will drop in and I placed a little U shaped peace back in place and staple it down.
I hate it when contractors install the underlayment because they have no clue what they're doing.
They we'll go so far as dropping the first sheet of underlayment in this edges lining up with the subfloor material..... Seam on seam.
On the job that I just completed I was actually going to go over the particle board that they did as a repair in the toilet area. As soon as I got to the job and realized there were 6 in of damage that they did not remove, I told the homeowner that I wanted to tear out the particle board and replace it with plywood.... a longer piece of plywood so I could cut out all of the damaged subfloor. They used two pieces of material for the subfloor in this tiny toilet area for some unknown reason. My sheet of plywood went in in one piece.
On the job that I was attempting to start yesterday, that was the one you just mentioned with the upstands. Never heard that term before but I know what you mean.
Those will be fit afterwards, not the way you do it. The construction on the wall is rough cedar planks such as you would use for fencing around your yard. If there was the tiniest amount of flexing because of humidity there would be gapping if the boards shrunk away from the floor material.
I may cut out 4 in of that cedar "fencing" and fill it in with 5/8 or 3/4 inch plywood so that I have something flat and smooth to glue the material too.
Yes, it's a weird one.
I just finished up drawing a couple of layouts for the shop and after I take those down there to them I'm going to head to the job and do some destruction. The damage may be too extensive and I'll just have to pull my tools back off the job until the repair gets done.

 

[Jon]

Just think if people did not try different ways We would still be riding horses not driving around in cars

As I said earlier I would maybe pattern the whole room for the vinyl, cut out the vinyl Then use the same pattern for the underlayment
Lay a sheet of the underlayment somewhere in the house, place my paper where it suits so no tiny fills etc Mark underlayment then crease the paper with my finger nail then cut along that crease throw away the piece you have cut off so that you are not dealing with such a large piece of paper then butt the paper on the next sheet of underlayment then do the same until room finished Notice the angle I would make the cuts around that pipe as I can get those joins done with a staple gun, most want to join in the middle of the pipe of which you can never get flat
Here is how I would do a toilet
Re the upstand fill maybe place a bit of thin underlayment on the wall first so make the wall smoother but your way could be better?
By putting the upstand piece first the floor Marmo will cover any slight gaps Very hard to scribe an upstand strip into the Marmo on the floor
By making a pattern of a toilet or any other room it makes it very easy of setting up the vinyl if it has say squares or a pattern which needs to be equal on the walls to go in the centre of the room

 

[highup]

Can you show me the scribe you use for going against walls? That might help me understand.
If I'm fitting net, straight to walls, I'd use a square, not dividers. Using squares and ball point pens can be extremely accurate.
The wall lengths on my job are 3 feet or less. The longest two runs are about 5 feet. Two runs are 18 inches and three are 6 inches or so. I'd agree if they were longer runs. To us, these are baseboards and we do them last. I've hand scribed and sanded wood baseboards to fit the contoure of the floor. If there are minor irregularities in the two, 5 foot runs, that should be childs play to deal with.
I tried talking to them into wood base. They liked this better fore some reason.

 

[Jon]

Can you show me the scribe you use for going against walls? That might help me understand.
If I'm fitting net, straight to walls, I'd use a square, not dividers. Using squares and ball point pens can be extremely accurate.
The wall lengths on my job are 3 feet or less. The longest two runs are about 5 feet. Two runs are 18 inches and three are 6 inches or so. I'd agree if they were longer runs. To us, these are baseboards and we do them last. I've hand scribed and sanded wood baseboards to fit the contoure of the floor. If there are minor irregularities in the two, 5 foot runs, that should be childs play to deal with.
I tried talking to them into wood base. They liked this better fore some reason.

Too hard for me to get up and down the stairs to get to my wagon at the moment due to this chemo
That straight edge
Builders squares too large and thick and will not bend up the walls Should kinda work though if not having to have a no gap finish Threw them away years ago
Remember that photo of the paper is all every body uses
Use that straight edge or similar
Straight edge
still better off putting upstand piece on first
Do you put the riser piece of carpet on stairs first or the treads first?

 

[highup]

Nobody uses that paper here Jon, everybody uses it down there.
Like I said, in the next two or three years I might have three vinyl jobs so I'm not changing the methods I use. If I was 30 I try out another method. I'm not going to buy new tools and practice on my last three jobs.
I've probably carpeted the skirt boards on a set of stairs once in my life and yes, I did that first. I also cut the carpet and 1/8 of an inch short in width on the stairs because..... It's carpet.
You don't fit the carpet tight on stairs, you fit it short then stretch it to be tight.
If I was fitting vinyl on the sides of the step, I'd certainly put the sides on first.
I don't think in the last 20 years I've had to fit one single piece of vinyl this tightly to all the surfaces in the room.... Maybe 30 years. Actually 30 years ago it was probably a self-cove installation. We do so few of them that I finally just said no because if you only do once every 15 years, you're practicing and relearning on each installation. there's too much stress and its a lot easier to just say no. I've never liked vinyl installations anyway and I usually do them to benefit the store when they can't find anybody else willing to do them.
I just turned down an entire brand new home full of marmoleum. I could have priced it at whatever I wanted to.
Easy to find an installer that will do a new house with no cabinets. You mentioned pattern paper and they go like what the hell is that?

 

[Jon]

Nobody uses that paper here Jon, everybody uses it down there.
Like I said, in the next two or three years I might have three vinyl jobs so I'm not changing the methods I use. If I was 30 I try out another method. I'm not going to buy new tools and practice on my last three jobs.
I've probably carpeted the skirt boards on a set of stairs once in my life and yes, I did that first. I also cut the carpet and 1/8 of an inch short in width on the stairs because..... It's carpet.
You don't fit the carpet tight on stairs, you fit it short then stretch it to be tight.
If I was fitting vinyl on the sides of the step, I'd certainly put the sides on first.
I don't think in the last 20 years I've had to fit one single piece of vinyl this tightly to all the surfaces in the room.... Maybe 30 years. Actually 30 years ago it was probably a self-cove installation. We do so few of them that I finally just said no because if you only do once every 15 years, you're practicing and relearning on each installation. there's too much stress and its a lot easier to just say no. I've never liked vinyl installations anyway and I usually do them to benefit the store when they can't find anybody else willing to do them.
I just turned down an entire brand new home full of marmoleum. I could have priced it at whatever I wanted to.
Easy to find an installer that will do a new house with no cabinets. You mentioned pattern paper and they go like what the hell is that?

highup you were the one asking about net fitting Marmo NOT ME
A lot of guys freehand here but when they get a product like Marmo they would not know where to start as they do not have a roll of paper with them We do have one guy who wants me to go with him as if he has a tricky job with lots of ins and outs Guess what, he bought a roll of paper which he now uses on underlayment as well as vinyl of which he has found quicker and easier and can now centre up room with an equal pattern each side
That straight edge is about US$16.00 You do not want to want to spend that type of money to make your life easier. Even carpet layers use them on carpet
Fine with me
If you or your friends do not want to try a roll of paper instead of the type they are using now
Then thats also Fine with me
Also if you want to run a piece of 6 inch x 2 inches piece of timber on the flat around the walls I dont give a s....t

And I oppose you are one of those people who rubbished heat bond irons when they came out instead of sewing the joins on carpet?
You thought turn and tack was better than Smoothedge or maybe you call it Carpet Gripper?
As I mentioned if we didnt change we would still be riding horses and not driving cars
I actually thought my carpet on the stairs were in two pieces. An upstand with another flat bit for the tread but I think its one piece, those bits of timber to the left and right we would call stringers if carpet going over them

 

[Jon]

Nobody uses that paper here Jon, everybody uses it down there.

As I mentioned earlier we used to use a rag type paper here from Armstrong I think we was also used to be glued down before the flooring like Marmo to quieten the footsteps down on timber floors, also it was meant to stop the T&G timber flooring boards from showing through the flooring due to our very high RL average 78 which only worked for a short amount of time

All of a sudden one could not buy that rag type paper. Only that wrapping type paper so we had to learn the ins and outs of it, the thinner the paper the moisture in the air the paper would get longer The thicker the paper was more stable Paper still didnt like being in the sun on hot days as it shrunk in the lenght of which we learned to allow for
Next learning curve for us was when these plastic backed vinyls came out we just carried on using the latex type glues of which we found made the vinyls go yellow so had to change to acrylic based glue and told we were using the wrong glue our fault, funny one could only buy latex or spirit type glues here, Also we found that these fibre glass and plastic backed vinyls did not behave the same as the asbestos type backings, would not shrink or stretch a little also finding that 10 minutes after the layers left bubbles would appear around the walls if cut in the thickness of a knife blade too tight, never had that type of thing on the older backings, once pushed down it stayed there
Re that straight edge I took a couple over to Mike from Boston who used to be on TFP awhile ago and even he could see the advantage of them over a square as a salesman
highup I know you arent doing many more vinyl jobs but I just hope some other lino layers might look outside their box and honestly try different ways which could make their life easier
Layers here say that while they are touching vinyl and not making a pattern they are laying vinyl even though they are struggling to get it into small pokey areas through doorways, parallel to the walls, coved 6 inches up the walls with lots of ins and outs etc etc. Make pattern and it will just drop into place
I have even been known to make a pattern for vinyl planks, vinyl tiles in tricky areas, lay a whole lot out on the floor drop paper on top, cut planks then just drop into place. Layers who dont carry a roll of paper do not even think of trying making a pattern
Dont forget people in NZ do not like gaps between their new floor and the skirting boards, toe spaces, the first thing they look for are gaps

 

[Don Monfils]

Looks great Randy. I have only done 1 marmo job in 34 years. It was a couple bathrooms.
The carpet one store that I do work had someone interested in a kitchen install, it looks like they are going with the 12” x 36” locking tile now.