DuChateau over concrete

[highup]

I've been asked to do a wood floor install over a concrete floor in a family room/den area. The room is a rectangle with a fireplace at one end and sliding glass doors at the opposite end. I'd guess the room is 16 by 24 and I'd start the boards at the long, straight outside wall.
Here's the product.
http://duchateau.com/departments/flooring/montserrat/#specifications
The last floor of this type that I installed was a Kahrs floor, probably 20 years ago.
I'm sure this floor will be floated. There's carpet down now and I put that down 15 or more years ago......... so I guess someone is going to find out how well Chemrex polyurethane adhesive adheres to concrete.
I hope that I didn't drill the concrete and drive in 1" masonry nails too.
The home is well built, in a nice area, not a slapped together track home. I suppose it was built in the early 60's. I faintly recall that the concrete floor is pretty flat and smooth so I won't have a lot of prep.

Anyway, about installing this floor. It's an engineered, 5/8 thick by 7 1/2" wide and I was told that you fully glue the edges when floating it.. I recall Kahrs was glued every 6 to 8 inches, then skip a foot.
If this stuff is really glued the entire length, how well does it 'tap' together?
Large hammer and a big block I assume?
Does it stay together or will I need ratchet straps.
I'm just wondering (worrying) how friendly this stuff is to work with on a concrete floor since I can't perform my usual tricks to screw any temporary "Holder Down Nows" into the substrate to keep the boards tight as I progress.
The material is stored at the shop's warehouse and the job is a major renew/restoration...... so I'm worried about acclimation time also.

Anyone worked with this expensive stuff? Sheesh, I haven't glued anything together for 15 years, and that was a Wilsonart laminate floor. Any help is appreciated.

 

[Ernesto]

http://duchateau.com/app/uploads/2015/03/Quality-engineered-installation2.pdf

• A bead of adhesive is should be applied all along the groove of each plank, Cal-Flor’s EuroBond D3 Floating Floor Glue
is recommended

High, I do floaters a lot. Many install guidelines say a 1/8 inch bead of adhesive the entire length. But to prevent too much squeeze out and hydrolic's I skip an inch or two randomly and leaving a small don't glue the whole end joint. Also I invert the plank so I'm running the bead on the top of the tongue. That way the glue won't run out of the tongue so easy. Duchateau's instructions are kinda vague as most tell you to invert or not to invert.

I also use straps just to set the first three rows and then when ever I need to tighten it up. Also when you hit the end of the room so you can crawl on it without board movement.
I get my straps from Howard at http://www.strapclamps.net/ Howard is a third generation hardwood installer outs Vegas and he ships them quickly.

I can't imagine trying to do one without.

Ken Fisher has some good tips here http://www.uptownfloors.com/tools/strap-clamps.htm
Those are my pics he is using.

 

[highup]

I made some heavy duty ratchet clamps using ratchets mechanisms like the ones used on semi trailer hold downs....... Makes the old Pergo clamps loo like sissy toys.
I'll have to dig those out.
The retailer said to use blue tape....... but I see the manufacturer says that's a no no with their finish.
I agree their install pdf is vague. I forgot about inverting the plank.
So what, glue just 2 or 3 inches across the end joint?

How about Bostiks MVP as the moisture barrier, then Sound block or Floor muffler and taped seams? Visqueen is a PITA as far as floor movement goes.
Acclimation all that critical? The home isn't being heated a lot right now with all the construction going on............ It's coming to an end in a couple of weeks. From now through October, we don't have much rain, and haven't had much for a month or so. Temps are ranging 45 to 60 right now.
Here on the coast, the season to season humidity doesn't change a lot like it can inland. You provided a PDF one time showing typical wood moisture levels at many locations throughout the world. USFS website maybe? I was surprised to see how stable it remained throughout the year where I live, compared to 50 miles inland where it can get pretty dry and toasty during the summer. Summers here are roundabout 70 and winters around 35 to 45 for highs.

 

[Ernesto]

I've done MVP4, plastic and underlayment before. I dispise floor muffler, it compresses when you work on it and it don't come back.
I have around 14 ratchet straps, half Crain the other half from Howard.

I am currently floating a Bruce 5 inch hickory and decided I like the way Owens says to glue the planks. By not inverting but applying the glue along the bottom with the tongue facing you.

 

[highup]

I've done MVP4, plastic and underlayment before. I dispise floor muffler, it compresses when you work on it and it don't come back.
I have around 14 ratchet straps, half Crain the other half from Howard.

I am currently floating a Bruce 5 inch hickory and decided I like the way Owens says to glue the planks. By not inverting but applying the glue along the bottom with the tongue facing you.

I have six ratchets. The room is 19'2" by 26' with the planks going the long way The planks are 6 feet or less. I suppose if I work slow enough, I can make it work.
Not sure if they are using floor muffler for sure, but I think it's green.
The compression from kneeling or walking on it isn't an issue..... no way would anything flatten the stuff once a board is installed over it. I've only installed the muffler one row at a time so you don't damage it.

 

[highup]

http://duchateau.com/app/uploads/2015/03/Quality-engineered-installation2.pdf

• A bead of adhesive is should be applied all along the groove of each plank, Cal-Flor’s EuroBond D3 Floating Floor Glue
is recommended

High, I do floaters a lot. Many install guidelines say a 1/8 inch bead of adhesive the entire length. But to prevent too much squeeze out and hydrolic's I skip an inch or two randomly and leaving a small don't glue the whole end joint. Also I invert the plank so I'm running the bead on the top of the tongue. That way the glue won't run out of the tongue so easy. Duchateau's instructions are kinda vague as most tell you to invert or not to invert.

I also use straps just to set the first three rows and then when ever I need to tighten it up. Also when you hit the end of the room so you can crawl on it without board movement.
I get my straps from Howard at http://www.strapclamps.net/ Howard is a third generation hardwood installer outs Vegas and he ships them quickly.

I can't imagine trying to do one without.

Ken Fisher has some good tips here http://www.uptownfloors.com/tools/strap-clamps.htm
Those are my pics he is using.

Whats so special about the glue choice. I think most guys use Tightbond II around here.
" A bead of adhesive is should be applied all along the groove of each plank, Cal-Flor’s EuroBond D3 Floating Floor Glue is recommended"

With 6 mil over the concrete, then Floor Muffler on top of that, I know this is going to make a slippery mess to start with as far as making the starter rows straight.
If I fit and clamp together the first three rows as one unit (unglued), will this make them self align?
If so, then while clamped together, I could scribe fit the first row to the long wall, and then disassemble the planks to cut the first row and then put in my spacers and go to town reassembling the planks in order?
In my sketch, it shows a fireplace on the left, and a 6 foot sliding door to the right. I think the planks are about 6 feet long, so my drawing has too many boards, making it more complicated than it looks.
They say 1/2 inch expansion on all sides...... I suppose for engineered over plastic, I'd be plenty safe with 3/8" The room is 19 feet at the widest and 26 feet in length.

 

[highup]

Here's one of my ClamperdownNows next to the type of clamp that Pergo used way back in 'the day'. Not purdy because they haven't been used a few decades. I think some Hammerite paint ought to fix em right up.

 

[Ernesto]

Whats so special about the glue choice. I think most guys use Tightbond II around here.
" A bead of adhesive is should be applied all along the groove of each plank, Cal-Flor’s EuroBond D3 Floating Floor Glue is recommended"

With 6 mil over the concrete, then Floor Muffler on top of that, I know this is going to make a slippery mess to start with as far as making the starter rows straight.
If I fit and clamp together the first three rows as one unit (unglued), will this make them self align?
If so, then while clamped together, I could scribe fit the first row to the long wall, and then disassemble the planks to cut the first row and then put in my spacers and go to town reassembling the planks in order?
In my sketch, it shows a fireplace on the left, and a 6 foot sliding door to the right. I think the planks are about 6 feet long, so my drawing has too many boards, making it more complicated than it looks.
They say 1/2 inch expansion on all sides...... I suppose for engineered over plastic, I'd be plenty safe with 3/8" The room is 19 feet at the widest and 26 feet in length.

I use titebond T&G adhesive like this cept I get it for 9 bucks a bottle. https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&k...wo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_84mlwymmkp_b_p9

And yes and yes and yes to the other questions. Engineered moves more length wise the width, and then thats very minimal movement.

 

[highup]

I need some help. Help explaining why the manufacturers guidelines need to be followed when it comes to glue types for this particular purpose. I was told today that thousands of feet of this flooring have been installed with Tight Bond II.
So I suppose that must mean it's a good adhesive choice?

I suspect Tight Bond will actually hold OK, but something deep inside says it may eventually (sooner if not later) have issues.............. issues such as causing crackling noises as it ages and gets brittle. I assume that T&G adhesives stay pliable over time and are totally different in makeup from your standard wood glues.
Tell me different.............. if you can.

 

[highup]

I'm starting the job with Titebond II since nobody carries T&G adhesive.
Du Chateau recommends Klieberit D-303
I can get some Taylor T&G adhesive delivered Friday before I get near the center of the room, but wonder if I should just cave in and go with the flow.............. Titebond II.
Nobody cares, so why should I. Sorry attitude ain't it?
To make it easier for base options, I figure on a 3/8" gap on each side of the 19' room width, and on the 26' length, 1/4 inch on the end by the fireplace so that a shoe molding will work, then a 3/8" to 1/2" gap at the opposite end of the room. Hopefully that will be enough. The product has been acclimating in the room for a week.

 

[Ernesto]

I've used Titibond II many times with excellent results. Shaw has one called Mega Glue, that stuff really sets quick.

 

[highup]

The Taylor T&G glue showed up yesterday so I'll see how it behaves. Titebond makes a T&G glue, so I'm just curious why companies make a 'special' glue for T&G flooring. Tightbond II is sold everywhere, so that makes it convenient, but is it the correct glue? There must be some differences other than the round tip. Taylor's glue is white and presumably dries 'clearish' like other T&G glues.
I'm gonna do me a little test to see if there's any difference between em.

 

[Nick]

We use to use Elmer's in the bowling alleys for patches.

 

[Ernesto]

The Taylor T&G glue showed up yesterday so I'll see how it behaves. Titebond makes a T&G glue, so I'm just curious why companies make a 'special' glue for T&G flooring. Tightbond II is sold everywhere, so that makes it convenient, but is it the correct glue? There must be some differences other than the round tip. Taylor's glue is white and presumably dries 'clearish' like other T&G glues.
I'm gonna do me a little test to see if there's any difference between em.

The T&G glue is supposed to stay flexible and not harden so any movement won't break the bond.

 

[highup]

The T&G glue is supposed to stay flexible and not harden so any movement won't break the bond.

........or make it sound like you are walking on Rice Crispies instead of a wood floor. My brother had a job or worked on a job that did just that with a Kahrs install 20+ years ago. It's a couple bucks a bottle more expensive for T&G glue.............. Titebond II is a whoppin' $12 to $15 bucks cheaper on the $7500 room I am working on. (not including labor) I guess off the shelf glue is just more "handy". which of course means "better". Who gives a rats ass after their check clears.
I'm gonna buy a bottle of Elmer's to add to my glue test. Haven't figured out yet how to do the test because they all stick to wood. A mix of and flower and water would probably stick these types of flooring together long enough for the check to clear... and that's a hell of a lot cheaper than Titebond II It's all about the cost, right?

 

[Ernesto]

I get Titebond T&G adhesive for 9 bucks a bottle from my distributor.

 

[highup]

I get Titebond T&G adhesive for 9 bucks a bottle from my distributor.

I think Taylor's is about the same.

 

[highup]

I get Titebond T&G adhesive for 9 bucks a bottle from my distributor.

I used the Taylor T&G glue on 9 rows of boards yesterday. Today as I was working in the next 4 rows, I heard occasional pops snaps and crackles as I walked across the floor. I can't win for losin'.
Is it possible that ratcheting the clamps too tight might cause the floor to make those cracking sounds later? Should I use the clamps to get the boards all snugged up, then reduce the pressure once I get the butt ends aligned with a scrap? Oh well, not a bad noise issue, it just surprised me because I don't recall hearing noises on the Titebond side of the room.
I'm two rows away from the wall and it is ending up just as planned. I'm gonna have to cut 3/8 off the entire side of that last row. I cut less than 3/8" off the starting wall which is 19 feet away. Am I good, 'er what?
The room is 19 by 26 with two floor outlets. I did some shopping around and found some old looking but new brass rings for the outlets. The old ones were plastic and were chipped and broken because they were on carpet.... carpet I installed here 15 or 20 years ago.
Anyway, it's very slow going but the customer is pleased as punch....... and that's a good thing.

 

[highup]

The floor looks different every angle you look at it. It has some kind of a hard wax finish that has a slight milky sheen to it...... not a white-wash look, just and aged patina sorta thing. Very rustic looking floor. I like it except for the price. ...about $125 per square yard not including floor prep, materials or installation ...that's another $30.

The last image looks towards a long hallway with the same wood flooring. There's one step to do. I'm thinking of extending that step to 12 1/2 or possibly even 14 inches deep if that functions better. Right now it's too short, only about 10 inches deep.
This room runs perpendicular to the hallway. If I enlarge the depth of the step, ya suppose it might be better to keep the step running the same direction as the hall? I'm thinking for safety and visibility.

 

[Ernesto]

Lookin great High. An occasional pop and snap is common untill the floor gets broken in.