Wood/Tar Paper Adhesive

Discussion in 'Beginners Forum' started by karl avellar, Jul 31, 2019.

Help Support Flooring Forum by donating:

  1. Jul 31, 2019 #1

    karl avellar

    karl avellar

    karl avellar

    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    ellicott city , maryland
    This is my first post.
    We have a parquet wood floor installed on two layers of felt paper put down~ 50 years ago on a concrete basement floor. A black tar mastic was used as the adhesive. We had to have waterproofing done to fix the drainage. About 2 feet of the parquet blocks ( 9"x 2 1/4" and 6"x 2 1/4" against the wall were removed careful;ly and with difficulty. A total of about 90 feet of length ( ~550 individual pieces. The blocks are generally in good shape. Some blocks were damaged, but we have some spares. Half of the blocks have felt on the bottom with varying amounts of coverage. I have chosen not to remove this felt.
    To replace the blocks I planned to put down felt paper on the new concrete to level this area to the already existing parquet blocks which have felt on them.. I would use 15 weight paper for the blocks with the felt paper on them and 30 weight for the clean blocks.Then I planned to put down the old parquet blocks.

    Then the problem arose. I assumed that the old adhesive would not be available, but something else would be.
    This seems to be wrong. I cannot find an adhesive that would bond to the felt. Apparently the asphalt material in the paper ( and on the blocks) is the reason. So, the question I have is are you able to recommend an adhesive or an approach to this problem? Thank yoy, Karl
     
  2. Jul 31, 2019 #2

    Floorist

    Floorist

    Floorist

    Administrator Staff Member Admin Moderator Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2011
    Messages:
    11,569
    Likes Received:
    4,183
    Location:
    , Missouri
    The old adhesive is no longer made because it contained a lot of asbestos. I will leave it to the other guys to tell you what adhesive to use. Ernesto or Highup should know.
     
  3. Jul 31, 2019 #3

    highup

    highup

    highup

    Professional Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    9,112
    Likes Received:
    2,078
    Location:
    ,
    I'm thinking the tar paper might need to get covered with a cement based floor patch so another adhesive could be used. You would need to remove the tar paper from the wood in that case. I'm not sure what height or thickness issues would be caused by adding the floor patch. Or maybe remove the felt, and skim coat the floor to the correct thickness, then use a wood adhesive that has a moisture blocker in it.
    I'm assuming you had moisture issues affecting the existing floor?
     
  4. Aug 1, 2019 #4

    Ernesto

    Ernesto

    Ernesto

    Professional Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    6,224
    Likes Received:
    1,349
    Location:
    , AZ
  5. Aug 1, 2019 #5

    highup

    highup

    highup

    Professional Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    9,112
    Likes Received:
    2,078
    Location:
    ,
    I have always wondered how close the composition of Cutback was to that roofing material. Looks a lot the same, but not sure how it's adhesive characteristics compare.
    That said, I suppose all it's gonna do is hold it in place. Yup, that could be one messy project if not done with care. I'd be concerned a bit about it's "set" time (open time) .............. if it has any.
    ....and it's stinky. Not sure if that would be an issue.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  6. Aug 1, 2019 #6

    Ernesto

    Ernesto

    Ernesto

    Professional Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    6,224
    Likes Received:
    1,349
    Location:
    , AZ
    Besides hot tar it's the only thing that can bond to tar paper reasonably well.
    Roofing mastic was traditionally used to seal slabs for sleeper systems under hardwood floors.
    You could also use mirror mastic which has been used to hold mirrors to walls forever. It has mineral spirits in it.
    https://www.dkhardware.com/heavy-bodied-mirror-mastic-gallon-can-600gl-product-20138.html
     
  7. Aug 1, 2019 #7

    karl avellar

    karl avellar

    karl avellar

    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    ellicott city , maryland
    Thank you for all the replies. I will talk to the manufacturers of these products and determine if I feel I could do the work well and then get a small sample and test it.

    To evaluate the success of the existing floor the history is this; the blocks originally were used as flooring in an apartment complex in Arlington, Va. They were probably installed shortly after WWII, 1945 to 1950. They were being razed in 1969 and they were selling all the material; windows, doors, bricks and parquet flooring. The flooring was selling for 10 cents a square foot. We got there late in the sale period and as we lifted up the blocks realized there was not enough of the same size pieces ( 6" and 9" ). I talked to the seller and he said ,"Take all you want for 50 bucks". So we did and got around a 1000 sq. ft. We scraped the blocks that winter and installed on the basement floor with felt paper and mastic.
    The floor has held up very well for the 50 years. The blocks taken up all seem to be in good shape except those damaged when removing them to make room for the waterproofing effort. The removal process was very hard. The blocks and paper were very well attached. The waterproofing was done because of a breakdown of the foundation's french drain causing the floor to be
    partially flooded by ~ an inch last year. The basement was a very dry basement for 48 years with no sump pump.
    Thank you again for the help, Karl
     
  8. Aug 1, 2019 #8

    Ernesto

    Ernesto

    Ernesto

    Professional Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    6,224
    Likes Received:
    1,349
    Location:
    , AZ
    Karl, those manufacturers probably wouldn't know anything about bonding wood products and floor systems. Best bet would be to perform a bond test with a piece. Or maybe you can find some of this stuff. hehe

    Robbins iron bound 3_03.jpg Robbins iron bound 2_06.jpg Robbins iron bound 1_02.jpg
     
    Floorist likes this.
  9. Aug 1, 2019 #9

    karl avellar

    karl avellar

    karl avellar

    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    ellicott city , maryland
    Thanks Ernesto, the Ironbond system you show is very much the system recommended 50 years ago. Just change the the cork to felt paper and use wood spline. Today we don't like to use asbestos (LOL)
    I did locate an adhesive that may work. It's called APOC Eterna-flash. The technical rep said it would work and is as close to cutback or tar mastic as I can get. We are headed to Morehead, N.C. for a week vacation. I will test it when we get home. Karl
     
  10. Aug 1, 2019 #10

    Floorist

    Floorist

    Floorist

    Administrator Staff Member Admin Moderator Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2011
    Messages:
    11,569
    Likes Received:
    4,183
    Location:
    , Missouri
    Let us know how it works out. Pictures would be nice.
     
  11. Aug 2, 2019 #11

    highup

    highup

    highup

    Professional Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    9,112
    Likes Received:
    2,078
    Location:
    ,
    I don't know what the "correct" amount (trowel notch size) of this roofing/flashing material should be , but be careful not to apply to much or install too soon after application of this "adhesive. I'd do some tests and watch to see how long it takes to set up with various trowel notches. I'm assuming it needs to flash off for a while.
    10 minutes .........3 hours? I don't have a clue.
    Is this material tongue and groove?


    Pretty neat stuff you dug up Ern. I've never seen anything remotely like it.
     
  12. Aug 2, 2019 #12

    highup

    highup

    highup

    Professional Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    9,112
    Likes Received:
    2,078
    Location:
    ,
    Can we ask how hard it was to take out the part of the floor that you removed ....and without damaging the boards?
     
  13. Aug 2, 2019 #13

    Ernesto

    Ernesto

    Ernesto

    Professional Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    6,224
    Likes Received:
    1,349
    Location:
    , AZ
    In his original post.
     
  14. Aug 2, 2019 #14

    Ernesto

    Ernesto

    Ernesto

    Professional Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    6,224
    Likes Received:
    1,349
    Location:
    , AZ
    Yup, pretty much the same thing I posted links to.
     
  15. Aug 2, 2019 #15

    highup

    highup

    highup

    Professional Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    9,112
    Likes Received:
    2,078
    Location:
    ,
    Oh, right..... carefully. :D That's what I was looking for. :D
     
  16. Aug 2, 2019 #16

    Ernesto

    Ernesto

    Ernesto

    Professional Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    6,224
    Likes Received:
    1,349
    Location:
    , AZ
    and with difficulty. Damaging some....
     
  17. Aug 3, 2019 #17

    highup

    highup

    highup

    Professional Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    9,112
    Likes Received:
    2,078
    Location:
    ,
    I meant, like jackhammers, dynamite, front end loader.....
     
  18. Aug 15, 2019 #18

    karl avellar

    karl avellar

    karl avellar

    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    ellicott city , maryland
    Hello, my wife and I are back from N,C,. Had a great time in this beautiful area.
    Bought some Eterna-Flash in a tube to test the adhesiveness. I bought this instead of the Henry's sealer because their tech rep said that they had no adhesive for my needs and should not use a roofing adhesive.
    It looks like it will take a while to set this adhesive,1-3 days. The Eterna Rep said 4 to 6 weeks before sanding.

    Highup, could you help me with what you mean by the set up time?
    I was just planning to put the adhesive down and then put the blocks down immediately. Any help with the application will be greatly appreciated.
    I am not sure how I will end up evening the bottom of the irregular blocks. I am considering back buttering the low spots and using the felt or using no felt and applying a thicker amount of adhesive and less back buttering. The felt option will be messier and vulnerable possibly to too much height with respect to the existing blocks; the no felt option would possibly have the blocks angled downward because of the height difference and probable oozing causing problems with adhesive getting on the sides of blocks not achieving a good lateral alignment.
    As far as the trowel size, I plan to use 1/8 x 1/8 x 1/8 square notch. If I use no felt then 1/4 x 1/4 x 1/4.
    I was interested and confused when I read the that the coverage when using a 1/8 trowel would be 12.5 sqft per gallon. The Eterna Rep said don't worry about that, the area covered is governed by the trowel size and 1/8 will give~ 45 to 50 sq ft per gallon. The 12.5 number is on the 1 gallon can and the 3.5 gallon container. I hope the 45 sqft is correct.

    The blocks were taken up by chiseling underneath them with a 5 point pry and a hammer as well as a box cutter and prying them up. Damage occurred when prying too soon.
    Looking forward to any help with this project. Ernesto and Highup and all, Thank you. Karl
     
  19. Aug 17, 2019 #19

    highup

    highup

    highup

    Professional Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    9,112
    Likes Received:
    2,078
    Location:
    ,
    Many adhesives need flash time. Once spread, they start drying through evaporation. This lets the liquids, or solvents flash off before you install them. The adhesive is now thicker and more sticky. Not doing so means the adhesive will take longer to set up.
    In your case............. I really don't know what is best.
    When we used the old cutback adhesive, which may be what was used in your old floor, we let it dry till it didn't transfer to our fingers when lightly touched. If we installed when it was wet, it would ooze out of the tile seams for a long time, especially if it was applied too heavily in some spots.
     
  20. Aug 17, 2019 #20

    highup

    highup

    highup

    Professional Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    9,112
    Likes Received:
    2,078
    Location:
    ,

Share This Page