You Make The Call - Stranded Click Bamboo Nightmare

[Ernesto]

I recently got involved with a client of a major nationwide liquidator of hardwood and bamboo .

A brief time line about the whole ordeal according to the consumers.

Consumer goes and buys Morning S__r stranded click bamboo. Store clerk ( "clerk" meaning no wood science knowledge) tells them to acclimate for two weeks and the installers will come to install. Says nothing about unwrapping bamboo form the cellophane/plastic wrap inside the box to acclimate, no advice on humidification as per the instruction that apparently were not in the boxes, but suddenly appeared in the online version after this issue was brought to their attention(very typical these days).

Preferred installers from come out to install the bamboo. They unwrap the bamboo from the boxes, no documentation of the contractor doing a thermo hygrometer test for temp and relative humidity, simply unwrap and install.

One week later the click stranded bamboo shrinks, separates the locking mechanism, shrinks from under the base boards as well. Installers/contractor comes back and applies putty to open gaps. The floor is dry cupping severely, and was readily apparent when I was there today.

There is a POW WOW with retailer and they're legal department says " It is the consumers responsibility to make certain the site conditions are in compliance, as they only sell the product." They say "It is the installers problem", essentially throwing their own preferred installer under the bus.

Hired gun inspector from retailers front company comes out and confirms, yes this is due to low humidity.

Consumer is totally confused. They complain to the AZ Registrar of contractors who sends out an inspector who knows nothing about flooring and he states; "This is a product issue, Installation is fine"

Consumer goes out and buys a high end humidification unit that is hooked up to the HVAC unit. It runs continuously for one month and fails to reach the 35% rh threshold causing his electric bill to go up $100 a month. Still does not help the stranded click floor to this date one year later.

The consumer is out on a limb for 7 grand.

So, who's the bad guy here in your opinion?

 

[ernie]

Just lost a bid on a Cali solid stranded bamboo. The consumer wanted to float and glue the T&G to save.money. I said no way I will only glue over concrete, even though Cali says you can.float it. IMO gluing a strand is akin to disaste


Then when I told the consumer about rh requirements, she called Cali and the sales clerk said that the WRITTEN rh requirement was not necessary! Like WTF!

 

[FloorMaven]

Morning star says to unwrap to acclimate. I have to say installation error by proceeding to install without proper acclimation.

 

[FloorMaven]

RH requirements are unrealistic.

 

[ernie]

RH requirements are unrealistic.

Yup, that's where the UCC should take effect.

 

[Ken]

Im usually the first one to take sides with the installer but they should have known better than install without proper acclimation. The bamboo should have been unwrapped upon delivery. The store should have known this and informed the customer. It comes down to the installer that decided to go ahead with it though.

 

[Ernesto]

I got my hands on the hired guns report. He totally contradicts himself. Gonna post it everywhere pretty soon. Get ready.

 

[Ernesto]

INSPECTION DETAILS

The cupping of the bamboo planks was noticeable throughout the Installation. The cupping was the
most visible against the predominant light source. The elevation of the raised edges (cupping) was
in a range of 0.020 to 0.030 inch. The side gaps and the end gaps between the bamboo planks
were visible n several areas of the instalatlon. A few areas of the floor had relatively larae side
gaps between the planks. However, most of the gaps between the planks were approXImately 0.022
inch wide. Using a Laser Square SL-24 and a straight edge, the floor was examined for levelness
and flatness. The subfloorlsubstrata (and floor), In two (2) areas of lhedining room, had lower areas
(up to 1/4 inch), which extended over 2 foot long sections. Stepping on the floor in both areas
caused some flexing (vertical movement) of the planks. The poor flatness resulted from inadequate
subfloorlsubstrata preparation. The floor span of the adjoining great room, the dining room, the
kitchen and the entrance was 40'9" long. Expansion joints (e.g. T moldings) were not constructed
between the adjoiling rooms. The expansion gaps at.the perimeter became exposed in two (2)
areas of the installation. A reduction in the size of the planks caused the condition.

Observations I Tests: The horne was located In Oro Valley, Arizona. The bamboo flooring was installed on August 7, 2011.

The homeowners were ooncerned about cupping and gaps. Consider attached photographs 1 - 12,
for a visual overview of the situation. The home was- oonstructed in 1991 and was located within a
desert area that was approximately 2,798 ft above sea level. The /loating system bamboo floor was
installed over an on grade subfloor (concrete slab), old ceramic tiles and underlaymenl The solid
carbonized bamboo flooring was installed In the entrance, the bathroom, the kitchen, the dining
room and in the great room on the main level, The primary trafflc areas were subjected to pivoting
force from two (2) residents and one (1) dog. During the inspection, the homeowners and the
instaRer stated and/or oonflrmed the following. The bamboo flooring was accllmelted for
approximately three (3) weeks before the installation. ThelnslaUer tested the moisture content of the
substratalsubfloor. A moisture banier (plastic sheeting) was not installed over the substrata. A dry
mop, a SWifter and Orange Glo Cleaner was being used for the regular maintenance of the bamboo
floor. The homeowners spend approximately three (3) weeks of each month in this home. A
humldifler was not being used in this home. The bamboo floor did not exhibit any problems aHer the
Installation. The adverse condition (cupping and gaps) occurred approximately two (2) weeks after
the installation and progressed with time. The installer had repaired some gaps between the planks.

Using a UEI Psychrometer (Model # DTH-31; 51#:9291173), the environmental conditions were
mooitored. The environmental conditions during testing and the inspection were as follows. The
ambient temperature range was 75.1 to 76.4 degrees F. The ambient relative humidity range was
15.8 to 16.3 percent. The air movement was low. Using a Delmhorst MoistureCheck Moisture meter
with pins (SJ#: 11412), the moistUre content of the installed bamboo Hooting was tested. The
moisture content of the bamboo planks was below 5.0 percent The moisture melerlDelmhorst has
digital reading and/or scale range from 5 10 60 percent-thus, all readings below 5 percent, wil be
displayed as low moistureoontent The moisture content was performed in fourteen (14) areas of the
installation. Using a Protimeter (MMS-Plus) Moisture meter (Model #BLD5800LH; SI#: 9291173), the
relative moisture content of the subfloor was tested. The relative moisture content of the subfloor, at
the time of the inspection, was consistently in a dry range.

It was not possible to obtain accurate information regarding the ambient temperature, the ambient
relatiVe humidity and the dew point before or during the installation. A humidifier was not being used
in this home.

5

INSPECTION DETAILS

Installation Related Issues:

There were no installation related issues present.

Conclusion: Site Related Issues:

The question addressed was what had caused the condition. which was a concern to the
homeowners. A dry climate (in Arizona) presents envlrorvnental conditions which are- hard on
installed bamboo flooring. A humidifier was not being used in this home. It was apparent that the
Installed bamboo flooring was exposed to dry environmental conditions. The ambient relative
humidity, at the time of the Inspection. was in a loIN range of 15.6 to 16.3 percent. The moisture
content of the Installed bamboo planks was below 5.0 percent. Dryness and/or dehumidified air
space caused considerable loss of moisture in the installed bamboo flooring.

Maintaining a controlled environment Is paramount to the performance of the installed bamboo
flooring. Bamboo floorilg Will exhibit negative changes In locations where low ambient relative
humidity exists. According to the Manufacturer's Instructions. a normal indoor relative humidity level
should be maintained in a range between 35 and 55 percent throughout the year. A humidifier (s) is
recommended. The installed bamboo flooring must not be exposed to extreme dryness.

The Indoor relative humidity was not maintained at the recommended level. Prolonged exposure to
unbalanced/dry environmental conditions caused the light cupping and gaps. This was a locally
caused and environmental/homeowner related condition.

Manufacturing Related Issues:

There were no manufacturing related issues present.

this report is based on information available to the inspaclor at the time of the inspection as well as
Its review and finalization as prepared by the Inspect Sol__ions' review team. The observations and
conclusion are made to a reasonable degree of certainty. Inspect Sol__ions reserves the right to add
to and/or to modify these findings should additional information become available.

Supplemental:

 

[FloorMaven]

I got my hands on the hired guns report. He totally contradicts himself. Gonna post it everywhere pretty soon. Get ready.

Whose position is it that the planks were not unwrapped?

 

[ernie]

Whose position is it that the planks were not unwrapped?

Everyone's. No one told the consumer to unwrao to acclimate and then installers unwrapped and installed the same day but after bit sat in the consumers house for two weeks

 

[FloorMaven]

Everyone's. No one told the consumer to unwrao to acclimate and then installers unwrapped and installed the same day but after bit sat in the consumers house for two weeks

Can you verify that as a fact?

 

[Jeff]

Either dude prepared this so fast that his spell correct couldn't keep up or, he/she has no concept of english as a written language. How could you send that out without reading it over first.

 

[Ernesto]

Can you verify that as a fact?

This person/s has copied emails from LL that verifies that admit it is his problem to insure the interior ambient temp and rh is at proper levels prior to installation. I got a client right now who will verify they didn't tell him to unwrap his either. I have had several other LL clients who will verify the same.

Besides all that the inspector noted the floor was not flat to spec and then said there is no issue with the installation. Right there he lost.

The inspector said the substrate was tested but did not say how.

The inspector said he used a pin meter to test stranded, which is not the correct method for testing bamboo strand.

The inspector claimed it was not possible to verify the temp and rh prior to or during the installation, which is an out right lie. But then he could on the inspection?

So much wrong.

 

[FloorMaven]

This person/s has copied emails from LL that verifies that admit it is his problem to insure the interior ambient temp and rh is at proper levels prior to installation. I got a client right now who will verify they didn't tell him to unwrap his either. I have had several other LL clients who will verify the same..

Is there empirical or parol evidence from an unbiased source that witnessed the installer unwrap to install? Is the installer admitting to such? Why wasn't this information presented to the inspector since all he wrote was product was acclimated for three weeks?

Besides all that the inspector noted the floor was not flat to spec and then said there is no issue with the installation. Right there he lost..

Why do u say he lost? He noted one area out a 1/4" which is really irrelevant to the overall problem. Just because he made one over sight wouldn't condemn the entire report.

The inspector said the substrate was tested but did not say how..

I'm wondering why a vapor retarder wasn't used and how does he know? He also notes I think a 49 ft span with no expansion which is over the 30 ft max. These things speak greatly to the competency of the installer.

The inspector said he used a pin meter to test stranded, which is not the correct method for testing bamboo strand..

There's plenty of debate there but any readings are going to be relative since its difficult to know the depth of a reading with an electronic meter. He probably should have verified his pin meter readings with electronic readings but is there any debate that the floor has less than 5% mc?

The inspector claimed it was not possible to verify the temp and rh prior to or during the installation, which is an out right lie. But then he could on the inspection?

Impossible for him as he was not there. If there is some sort of documented evidence it would have to stand on its own, he still couldn't verify it.

I think the cupping could possibly be attributed to the absence of a vapor retarder where the presence of one can be easily verified. The acclimation issue seems to be riddled with hearsay.

 

[Ernesto]

Is there empirical or parol evidence from an unbiased source that witnessed the installer unwrap to install? Is the installer admitting to such? Why wasn't this information presented to the inspector since all he wrote was product was acclimated for three weeks?

I'm assuming the installer/contractor admitted to it. This is a grey area to say the least. Would he lie about it, and could he get away with lying about it? Why would he lie about it?
Apparently LL or MS changed up the online version foir acclimation after the fact. Thats what the consumer says and I wouldn't doubt it. But then they can can't they?

Why do u say he lost? He noted one area out a 1/4" which is really irrelevant to the overall problem. Just because he made one over sight wouldn't condemn the entire report.

Not so much irrelevant as thats the worst totally unlocked area, right at the foot of the stairs. That is also where the installer thought it might be a good idea to caulk it. lol

I'm wondering why a vapor retarder wasn't used and how does he know? He also notes I think a 49 ft span with no expansion which is over the 30 ft max. These things speak greatly to the competency of the installer.

Underlayment was Quietwalk, but I believe they do call for a moisture test and if it is high your to use 6 mil. Doubt the cupping is from dampness underneath, looked like dry cupping to me. Like I said, I bet the installer/contractor did not document anything, just dropped off his crew and took off.

There's plenty of debate there but any readings are going to be relative since its difficult to know the depth of a reading with an electronic meter. He probably should have verified his pin meter readings with electronic readings but is there any debate that the floor has less than 5% mc?

I got three different types of strand in my office right now, the rh is exactly at 35% and the strand reads 8 to 10 percent with my non-invasive tramex set to 0.7 specific gravity.

Impossible for him as he was not there. If there is some sort of documented evidence it would have to stand on its own, he still couldn't verify it.

I think the cupping could possibly be attributed to the absence of a vapor retarder where the presence of one can be easily verified. The acclimation issue seems to be riddled with hearsay.

I'm not certain as to what the inspector meant by this, "It was not possible to obtain accurate information regarding the ambient temperature, the ambient
relatiVe humidity and the dew point before or during the installation. A humidifier was not being used
in this home."

He did not specifically state it was impossible for him to gather that info. He could have meant the installer for all I know. The report is riddled with inconsistencies.

 

[Ernesto]

Have you ever seen the tongue of a stranded click? IMO it is insuffiently milled to small. It would not take much out of flatness or drying down to make it pop.

 

[FloorMaven]

So who is the H/O suing?

 

[Ken]

Installer should have known better. I had a customer from the store I work for purchase a bamboo floater and when I came to install it the floor wasnt unwrapped. I voiced my concern to the customer and told him I couldnt do the install that day. I unwrapped every box for them and put them on the end of my schedule. Floor went down great, no problems, no callbacks. Customer was very thankful that I put it off and didnt throw it down.

 

[ernie]

I think the H/O may sue all three, inspector, installer and LL. I would maybe include the manufacturer.

Ken, that's what you got to do. I've walked on numerous jobs when the H/O would not comply with humidification requirements.
One insurance agent wanted the Costco strand click installed in his office. Had it partially unwrapped, ends opened. I said no f'ing way. That was a 800 footer.

 

[rugaddict]

i have to agree--it is always the installers fault--the entire industry is set up that way--we should know better---if we dont know thats our fault too---thats why the top tier is obsessed with all the dreary details of this biz--notch size--correct adhesive ---open time-- blah blah blah---its self defense