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ROTFL!! Oh man, that's hilarious! By the way, I'm very glad that we can have intelligent and polite discourse here without devolving in to insults. It's a refreshing change from the insanity on social media.
 
zannej said:
ROTFL!! Oh man, that's hilarious! By the way, I'm very glad that we can have intelligent and polite discourse here without devolving in to insults. It's a refreshing change from the insanity on social media.
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I think it's obvious our views on this sort of material are pretty strong. I've lived in a town of 16,00o my entire life. Hunting and shooting here is huge.......... only we don't shoot each other. That tends to happen in larger cities rather than smaller communities. That's what I see on the news anyway.
People who have always lived in a big city with lots of crime and violence is obviously going to have totally different view of a subject like this. Since it's impossible to actually walk in another persons moccasins so to speak, we are obviously unable to understand why we're right and they're wrong. So we'll never see eye to eye. The back and forth may not ever change a persons viewpoint, but it will shed some light as to why we each feel the way we do.
I live in a county of less than 60,000. Gun violence is extremely rare....... ya suppose that's why I don't like gun control? I think because we have so many guns, people aren't gonna chance breaking into a home because the owners are most likely armed. Compare that to states with strict gun regulation like DC or New York. How come gun violence is so high there if having no guns is supposed to make the people safe? 41 states have higher murder rates than Oregon. So no, my mind isn't going to change. I doubt people who want more gun control are going to change their minds either.
Just like politics or religion, I have total respect for people that I disagree with. We wear different moccasins.
 
The HUGE problem I see is that kids of age can join the military, get issued an AR-16 or what ever .... sacrifice their lives for their country, start a family, drive a car but not legally buy a fire arm? Or buy beer!!!

Something is wrong with that.
 
I don't know the size of the county / parish I'm in-- I'll have to look it up sometime, but there is a lot of crime. A lot of break-ins (but mostly when they believe people aren't home). I think it is egged on by the fact that the police just don't care. The only time they seemed to give a rat's behind about a break-in was when it was one of the 100+ churches in town. Seriously, we have a population of a 7k and over 100 churches.
A lot of people here own guns and there have been multiple shootings and various other murders. I think part of it is because the economy sucks, there's not much to do in town, and drug use is rampant. I would say the drug use is probably the biggest contributor to the violence. The police tend to botch murder investigations here and they don't arrest people who threaten to kill other people even when the people they threatened report it.
I live out of town in the woods so having a gun is essential. If not for predators, but for scumbags who come looking to cause trouble because they know police response time out here is incredibly slow. The cops in town won't even come out-- it has to be someone from the sheriff's office. Although, one time the cops from a neighboring town got in to a high-speed chase with a guy and he somehow ended out in my yard, parked behind my house and ran for it. Several cop cars rolled up into my yard and I went out to see what was going on. I suggested they could check my workshop since nobody had come in the house. They were too afraid to go in. I offered to get my pistol and go check the workshop out for them, but they said the suspect was armed and probably dangerous. They never did check the workshop and never did catch him-- but his brother called them to say that he'd jumped the fence, run through the woods, swam across the river, and made it back in to town & tried to hide out at a cousin's house.

As for the inner cities, I think a part of the problem is that the more people you have cramped in to a small area the more violence there is going to be. It's sort of like when scientists cram more rats in a cage together. The more rats there are, the more hostile they get to one another. But, I do think in some regards education, parental involvement, and extra-curricular activities matter. If there is nothing to occupy people they get bored and can get in to trouble. Cultural attitudes are highly important as well. In Singapore it is a very small island with about 5.6 million people. Crime rates are very low there-- but the punishments for crimes are extremely strict, they put drug users in rehab instead of prison, drug dealers are executed, violent criminals get caned, litterers are forced to pick up litter along the roads while wearing vests that indicate they are doing it for punishment-- which is extremely embarrassing for them, and the people there are generally very nice and friendly. The education system is excellent, healthcare is inexpensive, and there are plenty of places to go for recreation. The public transportation system is also incredibly efficient. It is so easy that mentally challenged children can use it without parental supervision- and I mean that literally. I used to see kids from the "special" school using the subway and bus systems by themselves.
 
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zannej said:
I don't know the size of the county / parish I'm in-- I'll have to look it up sometime, but there is a lot of crime. A lot of break-ins (but mostly when they believe people aren't home). I think it is egged on by the fact that the police just don't care. The only time they seemed to give a rat's behind about a break-in was when it was one of the 100+ churches in town. Seriously, we have a population of a 7k and over 100 churches.
A lot of people here own guns and there have been multiple shootings and various other murders. I think part of it is because the economy sucks, there's not much to do in town, and drug use is rampant. I would say the drug use is probably the biggest contributor to the violence. The police tend to botch murder investigations here and they don't arrest people who threaten to kill other people even when the people they threatened report it.
I live out of town in the woods so having a gun is essential. If not for predators, but for scumbags who come looking to cause trouble because they know police response time out here is incredibly slow. The cops in town won't even come out-- it has to be someone from the sheriff's office. Although, one time the cops from a neighboring town got in to a high-speed chase with a guy and he somehow ended out in my yard, parked behind my house and ran for it. Several cop cars rolled up into my yard and I went out to see what was going on. I suggested they could check my workshop since nobody had come in the house. They were too afraid to go in. I offered to get my pistol and go check the workshop out for them, but they said the suspect was armed and probably dangerous. They never did check the workshop and never did catch him-- but his brother called them to say that he'd jumped the fence, run through the woods, swam across the river, and made it back in to town & tried to hide out at a cousin's house.

As for the inner cities, I think a part of the problem is that the more people you have cramped in to a small area the more violence there is going to be. It's sort of like when scientists cram more rats in a cage together. The more rats there are, the more hostile they get to one another. But, I do think in some regards education, parental involvement, and extra-curricular activities matter. If there is nothing to occupy people they get bored and can get in to trouble. Cultural attitudes are highly important as well. In Singapore it is a very small island with about 5.6 million people. Crime rates are very low there-- but the punishments for crimes are extremely strict, they put drug users in rehab instead of prison, drug dealers are executed, violent criminals get caned, litterers are forced to pick up litter along the roads while wearing vets that indicate they are doing it for punishment-- which is extremely embarrassing for them, and the people there are generally very nice and friendly. The education system is excellent, healthcare is inexpensive, and there are plenty of places to go for recreation. The public transportation system is also incredibly efficient. It is so easy that mentally challenged children can use it without parental supervision- and I mean that literally. I used to see kids from the "special" school using the subway and bus systems by themselves.
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London violence: Nine more hurt in attacks around city on Thursday 5 stabbings in a 3 hour period.

London violence: Nine more hurt in attacks around city - BBC News

There were between 243 and 476 knife crimes with injury recorded in each month between February 2016 and February 2018. Last April there were 420 such crimes, an average of 14 every day.

However, as bad as the knife crime is the news to me...

On Monday, 17-year-old Tanesha Melbourne was killed in a drive-by shooting.

Less than an hour after Tanesha was killed, 16-year-ol Amaan Shakoor, from Leyton, was shot in the face in Walthamstow. He died the following day, becoming the youngest murder victim to die in London this year.

So there were also at least two killed in drive-by shootings this week.

London killings: No easy answers to gun and knife crime - BBC News

In a statement, the Met said it is "absolutely clear that we cannot tackle knife crime alone, we cannot enforce our way out of this and will do all we can to mobilise communities behind us and to help protect London".

Pretty stark numbers for a single city in a nearly gun free country. YOU can't legislate behavior, it's impossible.
 
So, it looks like some places have actually managed to pass legislation barring "assault rifles" and Bank of America will no longer give loans to gun manufacturers that produce "military style guns" or something along those lines. https://secondnexus.com/news/boa-wo...2&tse_id=INF_a90face03d8d11e8b29b6b4043a47a2a

We haven't had $ in Bank of America for a loong time because they tried to screw us over. IIRC they recently announced they were raising the minimum amount that people could have in bank accounts and not be charged fees-- which hurt a lot of the poorer customers who couldn't afford to have that much $ put away.
 
I just remember that my parents always hated Bank of America for ripping them off. My father pointed out that Bank of America isn't even (or at least wasn't) an American company/bank. It belonged (and may still belong) to an Italian company.
 
If you deduct suicides (and "suicide by cop") the percapita murder rate is far less that most other countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._homicide_rate
Murder per capita
#1 El Salvador
#2 Honduras
#3 Venezuela
#9 South Africa
#15 Anguilla (UK)
#28 Puerto Rico
#35 Greenland (!)
#43 Russia
#64 Uruguay
#66 British Virgin Islands (UK)
#95 Lithuania
#102 USA
#109 Ukraine
#112 Cuba
#131 India
#172 Canada
#178 France
#188 Israel (despite widespread arms)
= = =Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation,... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms...”
- - - James Madison, Federalist Paper #46.
The Avalon Project : Federalist No 46
- - - -
ASSAULT VEHICLES
Nearly 1.3 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day.
Why aren't there vocal proponents of BANNING ASSAULT VEHICLES, and returning to the much safer electric traction rail mass transit? [CRICKETS CHIRPING]
And let's not forget the recent terrorist attacks by murderous drivers mowing down people indiscriminately.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...y-weapon-used/Handguns were by far the most popular murder weapon used in the US in 2016. That year 7,105 people were murdered with handguns. Knives or cutting instruments were the second most popular weapon used, with 1,604 murders committed with a knife.
- - - -
Note: the 'scary gun ban' (misnamed 'assault weapon ban') had little effect on the statistics.

YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE 1994 ASSAULT WEAPON BAN?

• Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (AKs) (all models)
• Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil
• Beretta AR-70 (SC-70)
• Colt AR-15
• Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN-LAR, FNC
• SWD (MAC type) M-10, M-11, M11/9, M12
• Steyr AUG
• INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9, TEC-22
• Revolving cylinder shotguns such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12
[The prohibitions expired on September 13, 2004.]
- - - -
People are dangerous, armed or not.
I doubt that there are many victims who would prefer being unarmed and helpless, but I could be wrong.
 
Actually, a CDC study done in 2013, commissioned by President Obama, estimated that there are minimum 500,000 uses of firearms in self-defense every year, with the highest estimate at 3 million. You are vastly more likely to have your life saved by a gun than taken by one, but that relies on the population being armed for their own protection, otherwise you're left waiting, on average, 11 minutes for the police to arrive, according to Detroit's 2013 reorganization plan. The police will be the only ones who are armed to help you, which puts arms solely in the hands of the government.

This isn't from "conservative media" this is an independent apolitical group which performed the study.
https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1


To summarize
1. Armed citizens are less likely to be injured by an attacker:
“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies.”

2. Defensive uses of guns are common:
“Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year…in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.”

3. Mass shootings and accidental firearm deaths account for a small fraction of gun-related deaths, and both are declining:
“The number of public mass shootings of the type that occurred at Sandy Hook Elementary School accounted for a very small fraction of all firearm-related deaths. Since 1983 there have been 78 events in which 4 or more individuals were killed by a single perpetrator in 1 day in the United States, resulting in 547 victims and 476 injured persons.” The report also notes, “Unintentional firearm-related deaths have steadily declined during the past century. The number of unintentional deaths due to firearm-related incidents accounted for less than 1 percent of all unintentional fatalities in 2010.”

4. “Interventions” (i.e, gun control) such as background checks, so-called assault rifle bans and gun-free zones produce “mixed” results:
“Whether gun restrictions reduce firearm-related violence is an unresolved issue.” The report could not conclude whether “passage of right-to-carry laws decrease or increase violence crime.”

5. Gun buyback/turn-in programs are “ineffective” in reducing crime:
“There is empirical evidence that gun turn in programs are ineffective, as noted in the 2005 NRC study Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review. For example, in 2009, an estimated 310 million guns were available to civilians in the United States (Krouse, 2012), but gun buy-back programs typically recover less than 1,000 guns (NRC, 2005). On the local level, buy-backs may increase awareness of firearm violence. However, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, for example, guns recovered in the buy-back were not the same guns as those most often used in homicides and suicides (Kuhn et al., 2002).”

6. Stolen guns and retail/gun show purchases account for very little crime:
“More recent prisoner surveys suggest that stolen guns account for only a small percentage of guns used by convicted criminals. … According to a 1997 survey of inmates, approximately 70 percent of the guns used or possess by criminals at the time of their arrest came from family or friends, drug dealers, street purchases, or the underground market.”

7. The vast majority of gun-related deaths are not homicides, but suicides:
“Between the years 2000-2010 firearm-related suicides significantly outnumbered homicides for all age groups, annually accounting for 61 percent of the more than 335,600 people who died from firearms related violence in the United States.”
 
I was arguing with someone who talked about the "good guy with a gun" being a myth. My brother and I have both had to defend our property from trespassers before and my father thwarted a carjacking attempt because he had a gun. Granted, my father served in the military AND in law enforcement so he was well trained.
 

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