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My bathroom floor project
- Thread starter zannej
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Help Support Flooring Forum - DIY & Professional:
Looks almost like a self leveling floor patch would be easier. Self levelers seek level and become smooth and flat, so if the floor slopes to one side, the filler will flow in that direction.
You can picture pouring pancake batter on the floor smoothing it around a bit to get sorta close to where it needs to be, then stop playing with it and let it flow out flat. In your case, "flatter"
Regular patch will work too. Just might need to do it in 3 steps or thereabouts.
You can picture pouring pancake batter on the floor smoothing it around a bit to get sorta close to where it needs to be, then stop playing with it and let it flow out flat. In your case, "flatter"
Regular patch will work too. Just might need to do it in 3 steps or thereabouts.
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My problem with the self-leveling patch is 1. Already tried it and botched it & 2. Due to the high humidity in my area, stuff I have to mix myself seems to have problems with the powder getting messed up prior to mixing. 3. I can't seem to find the self-leveling mixes that come in smaller sizes. It's all 50lbs to 80lbs when I look and I only need about 10lbs (and trying to portion out one of the larger ones would be a total pain).
I love the idea of the self-leveling, but I want to at least try the patch level to see if it can help. If it doesn't get things level, at least it can be smooth & I can use toilet shims for level if need be.
My only concern with 345 (other than possibility of not getting it level) is that I don't know if it will break apart under a toilet. I wonder if I should put some kind of not quite epoxy, but something to protect it on top... I hope that makes sense.
Edit: Ok, I was wrong about sizes. I just looked and it seems there is a 40lb mix, but it's still too large for what I need to do.
I love the idea of the self-leveling, but I want to at least try the patch level to see if it can help. If it doesn't get things level, at least it can be smooth & I can use toilet shims for level if need be.
My only concern with 345 (other than possibility of not getting it level) is that I don't know if it will break apart under a toilet. I wonder if I should put some kind of not quite epoxy, but something to protect it on top... I hope that makes sense.
Edit: Ok, I was wrong about sizes. I just looked and it seems there is a 40lb mix, but it's still too large for what I need to do.
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It's about the cost of the bag, not how big the bag is.
Yours can be leveled up at the toilet so you don't need shims. If the floor isn't flexing, then the filler won't crack up.
I'll see if I can come up with a drawing, showing what might work for you. More than one step for sure.
Yours can be leveled up at the toilet so you don't need shims. If the floor isn't flexing, then the filler won't crack up.
I'll see if I can come up with a drawing, showing what might work for you. More than one step for sure.
Here's a few drawings to help smooth that out.... hopefully.
Smooshing the filler all about with a trowel will be really difficult to get remotely close to flat around where the toilet sets. You don't want a bunch of shims.
Here's one way. You need to establish a flat surface on both sides of the toilet.
Put a long "glob" of filler on the floor like shown. To this one side at a time.
Now drop the angle aluminum screed into the filler starting along side the flange, and pull the filler to the right as far as you can make it go. You might have to sort of wiggle or shake the aluminum back and forth as you move it. go as far as you can towards the wall on the right. If you don't make it that far, that can be done later in another pass. Clean the aluminum or whatever you used and do the left side of the toilet area. If there are any high areas of new, wet filler, you can let the filler set up for 10 minutes or so and scrape them smooth with a razor type floor scraper of even a 6 inch drywall spreader. Do not let the filler dry for hours because it gets really, really hard........ as you know.
Also, if you still have any spots that are still too high, get rid of them first.
You are just trying to establish two flat and relatively smooth areas next to the toilet flange, not so worried about the edges yet.
When done, it ought to look sorta like the last image.
Smooshing the filler all about with a trowel will be really difficult to get remotely close to flat around where the toilet sets. You don't want a bunch of shims.
Here's one way. You need to establish a flat surface on both sides of the toilet.
Put a long "glob" of filler on the floor like shown. To this one side at a time.
Now drop the angle aluminum screed into the filler starting along side the flange, and pull the filler to the right as far as you can make it go. You might have to sort of wiggle or shake the aluminum back and forth as you move it. go as far as you can towards the wall on the right. If you don't make it that far, that can be done later in another pass. Clean the aluminum or whatever you used and do the left side of the toilet area. If there are any high areas of new, wet filler, you can let the filler set up for 10 minutes or so and scrape them smooth with a razor type floor scraper of even a 6 inch drywall spreader. Do not let the filler dry for hours because it gets really, really hard........ as you know.
Also, if you still have any spots that are still too high, get rid of them first.
You are just trying to establish two flat and relatively smooth areas next to the toilet flange, not so worried about the edges yet.
When done, it ought to look sorta like the last image.
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OK, once the first part is set up a bit and any ridges are scraped flat, fill the areas between the first two screeds of filler........... then wait a while and scrape flat any ridges from this procedure.
Once more, don't worry about the wall edges of the small areas next to the flange. Just be sure this area that you have been doing ends up as smooth, flat and consistent as possible. This establishes a large area that is flat, and gives you a starting point to finish up to the walls.
Heck, you could even start the same procedure at the walls and blend them towards the part you already have completed.
You aren't trying for a thick layer, just a smooth surface.
Once the surface is as smooth and flat as you can get it ..........and smooth up next to the walls and everywhere, mix up a little bit thinner mixture of filler and starting at one corner, use a 6 or 9 inch drywall spreader or a trowel and do one last thin skim coat, blending everything together. Again, any minor ridges should be scraped flat after the filler has set up firmly, but not dry.
This would be more than a one step fill for most anyone. It's pretty rough............ If it takes you 6 steps.... so what.
Once more, don't worry about the wall edges of the small areas next to the flange. Just be sure this area that you have been doing ends up as smooth, flat and consistent as possible. This establishes a large area that is flat, and gives you a starting point to finish up to the walls.
Heck, you could even start the same procedure at the walls and blend them towards the part you already have completed.
You aren't trying for a thick layer, just a smooth surface.
Once the surface is as smooth and flat as you can get it ..........and smooth up next to the walls and everywhere, mix up a little bit thinner mixture of filler and starting at one corner, use a 6 or 9 inch drywall spreader or a trowel and do one last thin skim coat, blending everything together. Again, any minor ridges should be scraped flat after the filler has set up firmly, but not dry.
This would be more than a one step fill for most anyone. It's pretty rough............ If it takes you 6 steps.... so what.
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....and vacuum well between layers of filler. Be sure to mix it well so there aren't any lumps in the mixture.
Thank you very much, Highup! The pictures are very helpful.
My concern about the weight of the bags has to do with being able to handle it and manage it. Since I have a bad back & trouble with my arm right now, I can't deal with something too heavy. So for my purposes, I was more worried about weight than cost. Although, I don't want to get anything majorly expensive.
If I go with something I have to mix myself, I'd probably try to find a self-leveler in small enough quantities. I tend to dislike the ones I mix myself bc of aforementioned problems with the high humidity & what happened last time. If I get a patch that I have to level myself, I'd go with something pre-mixed. The stuff I'm looking at (I think the Henry 345) can be applied in 1/4" thickness at a time & is supposed to dry within 2 hours but people who used it reported it can take 6 to 8 hours. I hadn't even thought of the technique you've suggested here but I like that idea. I was just going to start in front of the flange filling in a very thin layer into the little craters. I got a metal rectangular trowel & a plastic putty knife (for putting the mix on the trowel). I think I may have a metal putty knife in my bathroom somewhere. I was going to set a level on top of the trowel to see how off it is & try to get it more even.
But, the two ridges thing & going out from there to make sure the surrounding areas are smooth sounds good. I can probably still spot fill in the craters in front of the flange but not worry about making it level. & I do want to make sure the seam between the plywood & the luan is smooth. Worst case scenario if something dries while too high or bumpy, I have that grinder. The previous grinding only took about 5 minutes.
The 345 doesn't require any metal screen nor primer underneath, but I do want to make sure it's free of dust. I was thinking of wiping down the subfloor/surface with a damp rag/sponge to clear up dust & then dry it with a dry rag. Vacuuming between layers is noted.
I was also thinking of using a damp sponge for feathering/smoothing if the trowel leaves ridges. Maybe the "Magic" Eraser might actually come in handy-- if it doesn't tear apart. At this point, I'm not too worried about getting it exactly level so long as it is smooth/flat & not too skewed. I think the 345 can go up to 1" thick, but I don't think there is that much of a difference in the height. I hope not at least.
I'm ok with having 6 different steps so long as I get it done & it doesn't turn out as horrible as the first attempt.
*Would it be ok to wipe down subfloor surface w/ damp rag or sponge & drying it w/ dry rag prior to application of mix (and between layers once it dries)?
*Can I feather/smooth the mix w/ a damp smooth sponge to take out any possible marks/ridges left by trowel?
*What is the best method of checking the thickness of the spread to make sure it doesn't exceed 1/4" per layer?
My concern about the weight of the bags has to do with being able to handle it and manage it. Since I have a bad back & trouble with my arm right now, I can't deal with something too heavy. So for my purposes, I was more worried about weight than cost. Although, I don't want to get anything majorly expensive.
If I go with something I have to mix myself, I'd probably try to find a self-leveler in small enough quantities. I tend to dislike the ones I mix myself bc of aforementioned problems with the high humidity & what happened last time. If I get a patch that I have to level myself, I'd go with something pre-mixed. The stuff I'm looking at (I think the Henry 345) can be applied in 1/4" thickness at a time & is supposed to dry within 2 hours but people who used it reported it can take 6 to 8 hours. I hadn't even thought of the technique you've suggested here but I like that idea. I was just going to start in front of the flange filling in a very thin layer into the little craters. I got a metal rectangular trowel & a plastic putty knife (for putting the mix on the trowel). I think I may have a metal putty knife in my bathroom somewhere. I was going to set a level on top of the trowel to see how off it is & try to get it more even.
But, the two ridges thing & going out from there to make sure the surrounding areas are smooth sounds good. I can probably still spot fill in the craters in front of the flange but not worry about making it level. & I do want to make sure the seam between the plywood & the luan is smooth. Worst case scenario if something dries while too high or bumpy, I have that grinder. The previous grinding only took about 5 minutes.
The 345 doesn't require any metal screen nor primer underneath, but I do want to make sure it's free of dust. I was thinking of wiping down the subfloor/surface with a damp rag/sponge to clear up dust & then dry it with a dry rag. Vacuuming between layers is noted.
I was also thinking of using a damp sponge for feathering/smoothing if the trowel leaves ridges. Maybe the "Magic" Eraser might actually come in handy-- if it doesn't tear apart. At this point, I'm not too worried about getting it exactly level so long as it is smooth/flat & not too skewed. I think the 345 can go up to 1" thick, but I don't think there is that much of a difference in the height. I hope not at least.
I'm ok with having 6 different steps so long as I get it done & it doesn't turn out as horrible as the first attempt.
*Would it be ok to wipe down subfloor surface w/ damp rag or sponge & drying it w/ dry rag prior to application of mix (and between layers once it dries)?
*Can I feather/smooth the mix w/ a damp smooth sponge to take out any possible marks/ridges left by trowel?
*What is the best method of checking the thickness of the spread to make sure it doesn't exceed 1/4" per layer?
DPPPPPP
Zan, you don't need any actual thickness unless you actually need to fill voids or feather from one sheet to another sheet that is thinner. When I skim coat plywood to fill depressions or blend plywood seam edges, it's rarely 1/8" deep. You're not trying to change a wood floor into a concrete slab.
Any spreading device smaller than a 6" wide drywall spreader will be a waste of effort. Even a pro wouldn't be able to smooth an area like that with
I use a 2" by 2" by 5/16" thick angle aluminum. I have a 5 footer a 3 footer and a 2 footer. Steel angle metal would do the same thing. It's like a trowel 3 feet wide.
Spread a 1" deep by 6" wide mass of filler like I showed next to the flange and pull the angle metal sideways towards the wall to the right to spread out the material in one fairly smooth pass. If there isn't enough filler in that glob you started with, add some more and do the same procedure again. If that comes out fairly smooth, don't keep messing with it. Add more later.
Spread out the filler towards right side, then the left side and use the trowel or a razor scraper to carefully scrape down any ridges once the filler has set up. I'm talking about 1/2 hour setup time.
If it's relatively smooth, then vacuum good and do the front of the flange and the back of the flange................ scrape ridges as before.
I can't imagine using a pre-mixed filler. uck! Even if you find one it needs to be compatible with the cement filler you already have on the floor. I'd avoid that route.
You can't mix this much filler adequately without using a decent drill with a paint type spinner attached........... just can't be done. The material will set up by the time you get the lumps out. You might be mixing the filler too thick. That would make the material difficult to spread.
For small stuff and when I know I will have multiple pours, I use plastic 5 quart paint pails to mix the filler. Add the water first, then the powder. Mix until the lumps are gone and it looks creamy and smooth, then pour or dump the bucket on the floor and start spreading. Don't dig one glob at a time out of the bucket and smoosh it around. Dump it out, spread it out a little to get started then use a wide tool like the angle metal to pull that mass of filler smooth in one slow stroke............. or two. Thinner mixtures are easier to work with.
Any spreading device smaller than a 6" wide drywall spreader will be a waste of effort. Even a pro wouldn't be able to smooth an area like that with
I use a 2" by 2" by 5/16" thick angle aluminum. I have a 5 footer a 3 footer and a 2 footer. Steel angle metal would do the same thing. It's like a trowel 3 feet wide.
Spread a 1" deep by 6" wide mass of filler like I showed next to the flange and pull the angle metal sideways towards the wall to the right to spread out the material in one fairly smooth pass. If there isn't enough filler in that glob you started with, add some more and do the same procedure again. If that comes out fairly smooth, don't keep messing with it. Add more later.
Spread out the filler towards right side, then the left side and use the trowel or a razor scraper to carefully scrape down any ridges once the filler has set up. I'm talking about 1/2 hour setup time.
If it's relatively smooth, then vacuum good and do the front of the flange and the back of the flange................ scrape ridges as before.
I can't imagine using a pre-mixed filler. uck! Even if you find one it needs to be compatible with the cement filler you already have on the floor. I'd avoid that route.
You can't mix this much filler adequately without using a decent drill with a paint type spinner attached........... just can't be done. The material will set up by the time you get the lumps out. You might be mixing the filler too thick. That would make the material difficult to spread.
For small stuff and when I know I will have multiple pours, I use plastic 5 quart paint pails to mix the filler. Add the water first, then the powder. Mix until the lumps are gone and it looks creamy and smooth, then pour or dump the bucket on the floor and start spreading. Don't dig one glob at a time out of the bucket and smoosh it around. Dump it out, spread it out a little to get started then use a wide tool like the angle metal to pull that mass of filler smooth in one slow stroke............. or two. Thinner mixtures are easier to work with.
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Don't try to out DP me. I am the Grand Poobah of DPosting bucko.
I read reviews on the Henry product. People complained about drying time and shrinkage and said it's gritty.
Ardex Feather Finish comes in #10 bags. Not heavy even when mixed with water. In a 5 qt pail, you'd get about 2 1/2 buckets of mixture. That's more product that Henry's gallon unit
Ardex Feather Finish comes in #10 bags. Not heavy even when mixed with water. In a 5 qt pail, you'd get about 2 1/2 buckets of mixture. That's more product that Henry's gallon unit
Thanks, Highup!
On my first attempt I used a high power drill & a mixing attachment. The problem was that the mix was expired & since I live in a very humid climate, it had already gotten damp/moist & started clumping before I took it out of the box. When I saw how bad the clumps were, I told my friend that maybe we should mix it more, but it had a fast setup time & he was concerned it would harden before it could be poured. That particular Henry mix has been discontinued.
The more I read about the Henry 345 stuff I think you're right. Might be best to go with something else. Henry said it would bond to the previous stuff but it sounds like it might be a total pain in the keester & I trust your advice so I'll find something else.
So, there is a Henry mix that is not self-leveling but is not pre-mixed and comes in 7lbs (150sqft coverage at 1/4" or something like that). https://www.homedepot.com/p/Henry-549-7-lb-FeatherFinish-Patch-and-Skimcoat-12163/100551687
I couldn't find the Ardex stuff upon searching HD & Lowes websites. I put in the search terms on HD & got https://www.homedepot.com/p/Custom-Building-Products-SpeedFinish-10-lb-Patching-and-Finishing-Compound-SF10/100152565
There's also a larger bag of skim coat stuff https://www.homedepot.com/p/Henry-547-25-lb-Universal-Patch-and-Skimcoat-12158/100189852
Which do you think would be better? Or should I go with something else? HD's site tagged some stuff that doesn't self-level under the self-level keyword search & Lowes doesn't seem to sell anything under 40lbs for self-leveling. I was reading that of the 547 & 549, difference is one dries in 2 hours & other dries in 15 min. I'm sort of leaning toward the one with longer dry time so I don't have to rush before it sets up but I'm open to suggestions.
On my first attempt I used a high power drill & a mixing attachment. The problem was that the mix was expired & since I live in a very humid climate, it had already gotten damp/moist & started clumping before I took it out of the box. When I saw how bad the clumps were, I told my friend that maybe we should mix it more, but it had a fast setup time & he was concerned it would harden before it could be poured. That particular Henry mix has been discontinued.
The more I read about the Henry 345 stuff I think you're right. Might be best to go with something else. Henry said it would bond to the previous stuff but it sounds like it might be a total pain in the keester & I trust your advice so I'll find something else.
So, there is a Henry mix that is not self-leveling but is not pre-mixed and comes in 7lbs (150sqft coverage at 1/4" or something like that). https://www.homedepot.com/p/Henry-549-7-lb-FeatherFinish-Patch-and-Skimcoat-12163/100551687
I couldn't find the Ardex stuff upon searching HD & Lowes websites. I put in the search terms on HD & got https://www.homedepot.com/p/Custom-Building-Products-SpeedFinish-10-lb-Patching-and-Finishing-Compound-SF10/100152565
There's also a larger bag of skim coat stuff https://www.homedepot.com/p/Henry-547-25-lb-Universal-Patch-and-Skimcoat-12158/100189852
Which do you think would be better? Or should I go with something else? HD's site tagged some stuff that doesn't self-level under the self-level keyword search & Lowes doesn't seem to sell anything under 40lbs for self-leveling. I was reading that of the 547 & 549, difference is one dries in 2 hours & other dries in 15 min. I'm sort of leaning toward the one with longer dry time so I don't have to rush before it sets up but I'm open to suggestions.
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Never used the Henry products. They own Ardex and maybe the 547 is similar to Ardex Feather finish. The thing about flattening and blending such an uneven surface is you need to get the filler on the floor then use a trowel to get it distributed somewhat evenly, and then pull a wide screeding tool like the angle aluminum or steel angle and pull the tool in one direction to create one even surface. Once you get it relatively smooth with that method, then you can use just the trowel and a soupier mix to go over the entire surface to smooth out and clean up any irregularities. When done it ought to be smooth as a Formica counter top............ well, as close to that as you can get.
If you use the method I showed it will really help to get the toilet setting as flat as possible.
If you use the method I showed it will really help to get the toilet setting as flat as possible.
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Just looked and saw that the Henry 549 is Ardex Feather Finish.......... in a Henry bag.
It would sure be fun to try the 555 self leveler and apply it with a 1/4 by 1/4 square notch trowel just to see how it behaves in a situation like yours.
https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/74/742f5b1a-9630-44b2-9885-1e5dd49b0be7.pdf
Needs a primer.
It would sure be fun to try the 555 self leveler and apply it with a 1/4 by 1/4 square notch trowel just to see how it behaves in a situation like yours.
https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/74/742f5b1a-9630-44b2-9885-1e5dd49b0be7.pdf
Needs a primer.
The 555 looked interesting but it comes in the 50lb sacks as smallest size & it does require the primer as you mentioned. It comes out more like pancake batter & is poured rather than troweled in place. I'd have to tape off spots & block holes from having the stuff flow in- plus I'd want to only do smaller amounts & figuring out the ratio would be a pain. I read somewhere that if there was a previous leveling job that it should be dampened before applying something like 549. My one concern w/ that is that I'm not sure if it would take more than 15min to work it in. I know it can be sanded though and we still have the grinder & I have sanders. I could hit it with 80grit. Is 549 the one you would recommend since it's basically the Ardex feather finish?
I think they said the 549 has a 3 to 1 ratio of powder to water. I need to remember to pick up the measuring buckets I saw in youtube videos of 549 being applied.
Henry cs said that the only difference between 549 and 547 was that 547 took longer to dry. I'm debating whether that extra drying time would be a good thing or a bad thing.
What do you think?
I think they said the 549 has a 3 to 1 ratio of powder to water. I need to remember to pick up the measuring buckets I saw in youtube videos of 549 being applied.
Henry cs said that the only difference between 549 and 547 was that 547 took longer to dry. I'm debating whether that extra drying time would be a good thing or a bad thing.
What do you think?
I use the Mapei self leveler and primer. Always smooth and runny. Make sure you use the primer and the directed amount of water.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/mapei-self...Xxg452nrj0v2ANgNIKKulXZWK5JFLJWgaAro8EALw_wcB
https://www.lowes.com/pd/mapei-self...Xxg452nrj0v2ANgNIKKulXZWK5JFLJWgaAro8EALw_wcB
Nick
In Remembrance
I use it to .. i just mix it into a Pea Soup..
Could she just pour that out of the bucket and move it into place with a 1/4 by 1/4 trowel......... then let it flow out? That would give an 1/8 thickness. 1/8" isn't much for flowability, but she needs smooth more than anything else.
